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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 01/04/2019 10:59

I think Sturgeon said at the weekend that the SNP were going to vote this time, as they abstained last time?

She also said s Customs Union was acceptabke. Do t k ow when or where l saw this, it’s all become a terrible blur. I don’t think l imagined it though!🙄

AwdBovril · 01/04/2019 10:59

PMK

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:00

DGR how the DUP voted at the last Indicative Vote is revealing

They voted AGAINST the Kyle/Wilson/Beckett referendum
They voted AGAINST the Clark Customs Union
They voted AGAINST the Labour Alternative Plan
They voted AGAINST the Cherry Revoke to avoid No Deal
They voted FOR standstill transition

But what they abstained on is much more important.

They ABSTAINED on Common Market 2.0
They ABSTAINED on No Deal
They ABSTAINED on EFTA and EEA

So it is pretty clear what they are open to in terms of negotition. And where there thinking really is.

They are open to a much softer exit than CU and they are open to a long transition. And they don't really want No Deal.

And they were prepared to make this clear enough to any one paying attention, without fully spelling out their position bluntly in the press, which politically isn't good for negiotion strategy.

The fact that they have done this and the Government don't appear to have taken the hint says a lot about the Government atm. Its not just the EU who have been totally ignored when they have been saying things in this process. Its the Government who have fingers in the ears going la, la, la not listening.

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:00

But that's what the Irish citizenship rules say. It doesn't matter if I was born in Bhutan if I was born of an Irish born parent.

There's a saying (in Latin) about laws and rights only exist where you can enforce them.

If the UK decides that Irish - or any non UK citizenship - is a crock and refuses to recognise it, then unless Ireland is willing and able to "encourage" the UK with a hail of firepower, it's a moot point. Ultimately it's what we have international treaties for.

The bottom line about international behaviour is it's all very canine. The answer to Why does a dog lick it's balls ? is the same answer as to Why does China abuse human rights ? or Why does the US refuse to acknowledge the International Criminal Court .

If you can't enforce a right, that right does not exist. It's one of the reasons why access to the legal system is an indicator about how democratic a country is. It's one of the reasons why - for all the hype - the UK is nowhere near as "democratic" as it seems. There are millions of people who simply cannot enforce rights they have in a meaningful way. So those rights don't exist.

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 11:00

@DGRossetti , if Ireland chooses to include the territory of NI as Ireland for determining citizenship because the GFA doesn't prevent it, there is feck all the UK can and should do about it.
If the UK government tells me, a UK citizen, that I can't hold dual nationality, then it can do that. But it has to do that for EVERYONE.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 11:01

I just think that the HoC having a 'tutorial' about how trade works 4 or 5 days AFTER the UK should have left the EU simply sums up the situation nicely.
I hope it is made into a comic sketch to be shown to all worldwide negotiators so they can understand the UK's powerful negotiating position.
Maybe all talks should start with a therapeutic 2 minutes laughing, to get it out of the system.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 11:02

Good news.

If they can,we can.

^Erdoğan’s party loses Ankara in Turkish local elections blow
AKP defeat ends 25 years of dominance over capital and sends shockwaves through country^

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/01/erdogan-party-loses-ankara-in-turkish-local-elections-blow

Violetparis · 01/04/2019 11:02

Can members of the Cabinet take part in the indicative votes today or do they have to abstain again ?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:04

Maybe all talks should start with a therapeutic 2 minutes laughing, to get it out of the system.

It'd be preferable to the 5 min Hate that seems to be the current protocol.

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:04

@RTB - thanks for that. Will digest.

I'm guessing whatever they decide, it'll be shock to navel-gazing MPs and their fanbois reporters.

When the DUP are the voice of reason, then - as Jerry Garcia once said with his gently twinkling eyes and avuncular smile - Man, you must have really fallen through the cracks in the sidewalk ! Grin

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:05

Can members of the Cabinet take part in the indicative votes today or do they have to abstain again

No word yet. Apparently there is pressure for a Cabinet Free Vote. But for now, assume abstain.

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AutumnNymph · 01/04/2019 11:06

Thanks @RedToothBrush !! PMK

Violetparis · 01/04/2019 11:06

Thank you Red

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:06

It is insane that MP's are trying to understand varying options to leave the EU over two years after we had the referendum.

This process should have been done years ago. I suspect they would have realised how divisive it all was and never held the sodding referendum.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:08

Who is Richard Harrington? Apparently he has just come out for 2nd referendum.

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 11:09

Sorry, what time are the votes?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:10

Richard Harrington. Former Business Minister. Resigned recently as fed up of pursuit of hard brexit.

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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:11

Don't worry I remember.

He is TM's ex business minister. The one who resigned.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:11

Cross post! Sorry.

TheMostBoringPersonEver · 01/04/2019 11:11

I think I have missed a few threads, so just PMK here to come back to once I have some work done!

woman19 · 01/04/2019 11:12

Ha ha, knew it! You're a Dead Head DGR.Grin

2 minutes laughing
There were splendid plans to offer hallucinogens through the water supply to unenlightened politicians in the 1960s-70s.
^Men Who stare at Goats* plot is an old idea.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:12

Nick Gutteridge @nick_gutteridge
Gibraltar/visas update: Spain will attempt to get Labour's Claude Moraes removed as head of EP's Civil Liberties Ctte today to 'pave way towards adopting Spanish position on Gib' being a colony, says source. EP position is Madrid's language, backed by Council, is 'unacceptable'.

Reminder why this is important: Legislation currently being blocked is EU decision to place UK on its visa exempt list of 3rd countries if there's a no deal Brexit. Unless that legal step is actually taken Brits would require £52 visas to visit the continent as early as April 13.

Most other Member States are exasperated/angry at Spain & think it's behaving ludicrously. But once more shows very strong club mentality of EU. Other 26 may think Spain is being 'insane' as one diplomat put it to me, but they're still backing it over UK as it's one of their own.

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ElenadeClermont · 01/04/2019 11:12

Richard Harrington was a remainer junior minister in BEIS I think, who resigned last week.

Tanith · 01/04/2019 11:14

I recently had a conversation with a Leave voter and when I pointed out the economic costs, she said she would happily eat bread and water for the rest of her life!

Easy to host next time she comes for dinner, then Smile

woman19 · 01/04/2019 11:14

but they're still backing it over UK as it's one of their own
English people never did get the hang of unions.