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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:39

In 2015 we had 70152 registered voters. 2016 (referendum) it miraculously dropped to 49790. By 2017 registered voters were up to 72,277.

The areas for voting in the GE and the referendum were not the same boundaries. They did not match constituencies. So the number did not drop for 2016. It was a smaller voting area with some of the normal constituency area allocated to a different counting area.

I have never understood the logic of this decision.

They also were never obliged to record the vote by ward in most areas. (some did and there is a record of them)

This has made it more difficult to assess why people voted and whether localised issues came into it.

There have been attempts to try and estime to leave / remain vote by constituency but this is very much guess work.

The best of its kind is probably Chris Hanretty's.
medium.com/@chrishanretty/final-estimates-of-the-leave-vote-or-areal-interpolation-and-the-uks-referendum-on-eu-membership-5490b6cab878

You can find his final revised numbers in a spreadsheet linked in his blog post above.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:39

Andy Brucee@BruceReuters*

Utterly insane pace of stockpiling going on in UK factories ahead of Brexit, unlike anything seen in a G7 country,
according to today’s @IHSMarkitPMI

< this is giving some misleadingly good headline figures for factories >

High level of the stocks of purchases index alone has added 2 points to the PMI vs its survey average (it has a 10% weight in the headline index)

There will be some who use a 55+ number to say “AHA! Take that, eurozone, Britannia rules the waves!”

But the boost from stockpiling is just not a simple good news story for UK factories. I
t heralds an unpleasant unwinding later.

Stockpiling sucks out operating profit.
Even if Brexit goes well, that will limit the scope for any rebound in investment.

GingerPCatt · 01/04/2019 20:42

I wonder if the peri/menopausal rage has nothing to do with hormones, it’s just women just being totally fed up with all the bullshit they deal with.
As for topic... I got nothing but R-E-V-O-K-E 🎤 fund out what it means to me 🎶

prettybird · 01/04/2019 20:42

User - Not sure what to advise as you've done what I would've thought of.

Is there a local paper you could write to pointing out the anomaly (if you want to put your head above the parapet)? Or local Facebook groups (not his of course Wink)? Twitter? # his name and/or the constituency as he can't block that. Even write to one of the National papers pointing out how your area isn't as "Leave" as is being claimed. Get the message out that the figures are being manipulated (if you are are of them).

Keep writing to the Electoral Commission.

And of course, in the event of a GE or a PV, get out there campaigning. Grin

ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 20:42

I'd forgotten there is no Division! Lock The Doors for indicative votes

Bugger. Can’t wind DS up tonight then. That’s the best bit (I’ve been banned from Bercow impressions).

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:42

_ How does the Speaker choose which MP speaks in the House of Commons? We asked him…_

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/b83kgb/howdoessthespeakerrchoosewhichhmpspeakssin/

woman19 · 01/04/2019 20:43

I didn't like any of the chemicals they give us to control our fertility. Men don't take them, but it's a lucrative business. Wink. In the 1980s a friend, an American nurse gave me information about the pill and I chose not to use it after.

It didn't suit me, but I know the pill and HRT suits and helps lots of other women, and invaluable if it gives relief and definitely essential to stop unwanted pregnancies, so good luck to those it suits. Smile

I am very happily post menopause. Took no chemicals. Nothing happened, except getting nice and warm with those hot flushes and stopping very hurty periods. Tbh I love being post menopause. Smile

I had hair loss when a friend died, I was working too hard, and I had a 6 month period. Got low on iron, I think. It's upsetting Scooby, be nice to yourself. It can also be just a phase, Scooby and Random?. (I also benefited from acupuncture for sore periods and homeopathy, which worked well for my kids' ailments (tonsillitis, eczema)

My SIL is a nutritionist, and I do think that different food and herbs are surprisingly useful for fixing/ameliorating some ailments. Sorry I don't know enough about it to give further advice, but have always felt that rice/beans/lentils/herbs/fruit/ veg/ herb teas are much kinder to our bodies than the processed stuff. (munching crisps as I write this Grin) I think I read that lentils and chilli are natural mood lifters, or maybe I just made that up. Confused But I'm just an auld hippy. Smile

At my hair loss time, I kept my hair short, cut out a lot of meat/processed fat. Went on to GI/ veggie diet and started walking up and down hills.

Seemed to cure it. Smile

I am very (too) hairy now. Grin

user1471429825 · 01/04/2019 20:44

Random18no we are a semi-rural constituency in the West Midlands a 30k difference is like an entire village disappeared for a year we don’t even have a large student population.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 01/04/2019 20:45

random Flowers sorry to hear you have the same issue. I am very aware of it also - it’s not great for confidence, although I hope it’s not as obvious to others as it is to me. (This is what my mum always said about spots Grin).

I vaguely wondered if it was iron deficiency (not a veggie but not a regular meat eater) so have been sporadically taking supplements/eating spinach, to no avail.

Should definitely go for a blood test!

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 01/04/2019 20:48

Oooh cross-post, woman. Thank you’ It’s good to think it could be a phase! 🤗

prettybird · 01/04/2019 20:49

And the myth of a managed no deal. Which Esther McVey and chums say will be great. Wondering if she's stupid or mendacious or, perhaps, both. Tobee

I think in some cases/individuals, they truly are mendacious SadAngry. I think though in too many a few cases, they really are so brainwashed into the "Don't they know who we are?" English exceptionalism/Empire 2.0 that they genuinely believe that at some point in the very near future the EU/Rest of World will blink and fall down in awe and beg the UK for a deal Confused

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 20:52

@littlespaces To continue the theme of amusing amendments

Foot-Bone
Lamb-Herd
Twigg-Brake

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 20:52

.

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:53

Ah, good to hear from you, woman, pointy that you also haven't taken HRT due to only minor meno symptoms.

I was worried I'd maybe been cowardly short-sighted not asking my GP about HRT or anything
I do tend to the policy "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I agree with woman about too many meds being prescribed just for being women
I dislike the principle of dishing out preventive meds for a whole population - e.g. statins too - when all meds have side effects
I want individualised medical treatment - if indeed I need treatment

Some women need far more proactive & earlier treatment & meds; some need much less

tobee · 01/04/2019 20:54

Even though the debates today have been really good and the options that they've voted on are hopeful, I've got this terrible feeling that what has been going on in the house has been for show only; and the talk of 200 Tories making representation to TM about no deal is where it's at. These bastards are going to get their way, aren't they? Keeping the party together is more important than parliament. I feel really down again. SadAngry

user1471429825 · 01/04/2019 20:54

prettybird thanks I might just contact local Labour Party see if they have anyway of exposing him. It was such an obvious error by a Government agency it does make you wonder what else is wrong that we all assume is right.

We desperately need more independents who are actually interested in people living in their constituency.

The constituency is North Warwickshire MP Craig Tracey if anyone else wants to point out his obvious error.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:55

My fear is that the HoC will again say "NO, NO, NO, NO" without any "YES"

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 20:56

Oh and I know she’s a member of the Lords but I can’t resist

Cherry-Bakewell Cake Grin

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:57

a 30k difference is like an entire village disappeared for a year

@user1471429825

That's probably because a whole town WAS missing from the count in 2016. See my post at 20.39.

Most of the ref count was done by local authority area rather than by constituency which can go into neighbouring authorities in some places.

To add to the confusion the name of some count areas were exactly the same as some constituencies except they were different geographical areas.

Thus a town in South Codswallop Constituency, might be in the Codswallop count whilst the neighbouring town in South Codswallop Constitutency ended up being in the Claptrap count.

OP posts:
MissMalice · 01/04/2019 21:02

I live in a remain town but am counted as a leave constituency as my MPs area voted to leave. He’s going for a no deal Brexit. Very frustrating.

keepforgettingmyusername · 01/04/2019 21:02

Anyone watching the documentary about Brexit starting on BBC2 now? Looks interesting.

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 21:03

Some women need far more proactive & earlier treatment & meds; some need much less

Yes. Definitely.

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 21:04

Just turned over to Kuenssberg doc on 2.

The80sweregreat · 01/04/2019 21:05

The hot flushes are nasty.
I hate the menopause. Peri was bad enough.
So hot then cold.. men have no idea!
I am resisting HRT but it's tough as I am suffering. Doc only suggested this or herbal remedy. My waist is no more.
Laura Kuenssberg is on tonight on bbc 2 ( state broadcaster two!)

woman19 · 01/04/2019 21:07

Beetroot is your friend Scooby I am not a medic. So get grown ups to check if in doubt.Smile
PS Lotta menopausal men causing this brexit malarkey. Wonder what medication they should be on? Wink

I agree with woman about too many meds being prescribed just for being women

I dislike the principle of dishing out preventive meds for a whole population - e.g. statins too - when all meds have side effects I want individualised medical treatment - if indeed I need treatment

I'm not a medic, but I do the same, BCF
We're one of the best fed and looked after generations there's ever been, I want to get my money's worth out of this old body, I've got. Smile

Before we go into the vote shortly, I'm going to stress something. It's not necessarily the majority nor how many votes each option get which is going to be most important

How many Conservative votes each option gets is possibly as important, if not more so

Thanks as ever for your commentaries red BCF and all the others. Smile

Tory MPs took one look at the Tommeh 'event' on Friday and Grieves' Kipperitis in Beaconsfield and have decided/planned for years to jump for crash out.

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