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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:18

Just to remind us which PM we really have to blame for this shit ...

Bruno Waterfieldd@BrunoBrussels*

For some perspective
In March 2017, Juncker said:

“I have met in my life two big destroyers:

Gorbachev, who destroyed the Soviet Union,
and Cameron, who destroyed the United Kingdom to some extent..."

tobee · 01/04/2019 20:20

Just been reading up about no deal a bit more. SadAnd the myth of a managed no deal. Which Esther McVey and chums say will be great. AngryWondering if she's stupid or mendacious or, perhaps, both.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:22

😂 Something different to cheer us up:

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

The Stop Brexit Yorkshire Battalion has arrived, armed with tubas and white rose flags...
“It’s not just Londoners you know”.

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
chocolateworshipper · 01/04/2019 20:23

Results expected around 10.30 according to Sky News

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:23

I'm away from the TV and just on my phone atm so I'll leave the result to someone else whilst I post a thread about managed no deal.. M

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tobee · 01/04/2019 20:25

10.30? Damn got no excuse to not tidy my kitchen.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 20:25

As an observation, any non Westminsterender casually dipping into this thread over the last hour will be mightily confused by the dual topics!
At least peeing in hotel kettles is a separate thread.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 20:25

@robhastings
inspired by Cooper-Boles and Kyle-Wilson, my dad and I have come up with some alternative parliamentary amendments:

Creasy-Bottomley
Pound-Pincher
Cash-Grant
Fysh-Brine
McDonald-Berger
Hands-Onn
Costa-Coffey
Fox-Hunt
David-Bowie
Twist-Turner
Flint-Stone

I'll get my coat...

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 20:27

10:30 is way past time for my desperately needed beauty sleep.
At least that would be unanimous.

tobee · 01/04/2019 20:28

Peeing in kettles ShockShockShockEnvyEnvyEnvy

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:28

Tim Durrant @ timd_idf
#nodeal isn't an option for today's #indicativevotes, but some MPs are still calling for it. Some argue that the EU is ready with mini-deals or a "#managednodeal" to mitigate the impacts. I looked at what they cover and it's very different from the #transition in the PM's deal...

Under the transition, the UK basically stays as a member state through til Dec 2020, but can't influence EU rules. That means full single market access, budget payments, ongoing security cooperation, being treated as if it was a member of EU agreements with other countries...

The EU's no deal plans, on the other hand, are very specific - they focus on particularly important issues where no deal would cause major disruption for the EU. They are also (mainly) time-limited - they last for a number of months, but don't solve the issues for good

And many of them are conditional on the UK reciprocating - not so much negotiated deals as "do x and you can have y"

And they don't cover big areas like citizens' rights, or set up anything for the long-term future relationship on trade or security

The EU has said that if the UK leaves with no deal and then wants to start talking trade, they will push for: financial commitments, rights for EU citizens in the UK; and a backstop for the Irish border

Sounds suspiciously like the deal on the table 🤔

www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/albertonardelli/eu-uk-brexit-choices-no-deal-delay?__twitter_impression=true
The European Union Thinks The UK Is Left With Two Choices After The Last 24 Hours Of Brexit Chaos
BuzzFeed News has seen a diplomatic note of an EU27 ambassadors meeting on Thursday that states that the UK’s remaining options are no-deal or a long delay to Brexit.
Posted on Mar 28, 2019

This is a key part of why I've argued that there is no such thing as a #managednodeal, despite what some MPs (and possibly ministers?) argue

See the graphic in more detail here 👇

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/transition-period-compared-eu-no-deal-measures
Transition period compared to EU no deal measures

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Horehound · 01/04/2019 20:29

Ach I'm not waiting until 10.30

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 20:29

I've just put some spaghetti on as haven't had dinner yet and am settling in to watch the Vera episode I started watching earlier. I felt very lazy but I did damp dust the living room as I watched, did laundry and hoovered. I wasn't a total slattern Grin

Why are these votes so late? They should get them over and done with during the day ffs. Brexit and these threads have caused my bedtime to be later than ideal for quite some time Hmm

user1471429825 · 01/04/2019 20:30

Hi long time lurker here. Firstly thanks for all the info supplied it’s been a Godsend when picking through the minefield that is Brexit.

I need some advice off wise folk maybe Red or DGor prettybird if they are around about a potential mistake on the Electoral Commission website which I have written to my MP about but he is ignoring. I on the face of it live in a very Brexity constituency which suits my MP as a wannabe ERGer. He describes on his own website that 67% of his ‘residents’ voted leave. They didn’t.

In 2015 we had 70152 registered voters. 2016 (referendum) it miraculously dropped to 49790. By 2017 registered voters were up to 72,277.

If you use the 49790 figure we have a 76.3% turnout. 48% of constituency Leave. 25% Remain. 17 abstain. Very Brexity.

If you use what can be considered to be more realistic figures they look somewhat different. Leave 33%. Remain 17%. Abstain 50%. Less leaver orientated. More people actually voted in the following years election turnout was 67%.

He is gung ho ! No dealer man his Facebook feed is full of leavers demanding No Deal. I went on there to point out the discrepancy with relevant facts very very politely and he has deleted my messages and I have been blocked ! He has blocked others that have corrected him in the past and left the slightly menacing no deal messages he is receiving in place. It’s as if he’s trying to justify his own actions.

Now of course I realise this does not effect the overall result of the Referendum but it does effect the turnout figures taking them from 76% to 50% which in turn effects the narrative, making us seem more Leaver than we are which he is choosing to manipulate to his own advantage. He is completely ignoring the ‘actual’ majority.

I have emailed the Electoral Commission about this anomaly but have had no reply. I have emailed him again ignored. Has anyone else experienced this with there MP ?? Anyone else have such varying registered electorate figures ??

Any suggestions on who else I could contact. Would our electorate vary that much over a three year period??? I will add there has been no boundary changes.

I hope to God he gets his arse handed to him on a plate next Election and more people than I realise have spotted this. As Has been said before “if someone tells you who they are, listen”.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:30

View from Brussels: still desperately trying to explain to the HoC that the WA & the backstop stay, whatever the PD ...
but MPs are too arrogant to listen

Jean-Claude PIRIS piris_jc

HoC:
a customs union with the EU, a EEA “Norway” or a kind of EEA with or without a Customs Union, are NOT “alternatives” to the Withdrawal Agreement.

They should be mentioned in the WA as future common aims.
The WA’s conclusion would give time to UK and EU to negotiate them.
....
Fabian Zuleegg@FabianZuleeg*

But there is no recognition of this among many MPs voting tonight.

Many also believe it removes the need for the backstop. < 🤦🏻‍♀️ >

Could imply that these options are unicorns but what will happen if MPs back one of them?

< what I keep wondering - since the PD is legally non-binding, certainly on the EU, will they care ? >

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:30

I'd forgotten there is no Division! Lock The Doors for indicative votes and how it took a bloody age last time.

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woodpigeons · 01/04/2019 20:31

I tried lots of different types of HRT but they all gave me the most horrible permanent PMT x 100. I felt murderous. I’d never really had PMT before.
Eventually my GP said she’d read Prozac could help menopause symptoms so gave me that. It was amazing and as I wasn’t depressed I just stopped talking it when I no longer needed it.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 20:31

Regarding Political engagement and participation given Parliament is televised I am guessing that Trump has a team who watch and give him s synopsis. Similarly presumably Tusk, Barnier etc etc get provided with a synopsis?

How does it look internationally that the Conservative/ government benches were visibly threadbare? Surely there should be a physical presence at least albeit a disengaged one?

The80sweregreat · 01/04/2019 20:31

I bet the MP's and staff hate all these late nights and Friday working!
Or I guess they all are adding up the overtime/ expenses..

pointythings · 01/04/2019 20:32

I'm 51 and so far my menopause is following the same path as my mum's - irregular periods ranging from fortnightly to 3-monthly, some hot flushes and that's it. She was done and dusted at 53, no HRT required. Fingers crossed I'm that lucky.

I'm going to bed soon, can't be bothered to wait up for yet another no decision.

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 20:33

@LuckyMarmiteLover My GP was resistant to prescribing HRT until a gynae consultant I was seeing anyway about a fibroid problem wrote to him, and she advised him that I was 'allowed' to have HRT transdermal as the PE (pulmonary embolism) was a single, acute episode and NICE guidelines permit HRT in this circumstance.

The GP made me do a week long blood pressure monitoring exercise, then then prescribed the HRT.

Yes I'm also on levothyroxine.

Between the two medications, I feel much better. Much more productive.

InterchangeableEmma · 01/04/2019 20:33

I'm an hour ahead of the UK here but I fear there's no point in trying to go to sleep at a civilised hour tonight Hmm

Do we know if Wednesday is a late one too?

Random18 · 01/04/2019 20:34

@user do you have a lot of EU nationals in your constituency. They would not have been entitled to vote in 2016 but are entitled to vote in normal elections

OublietteBravo · 01/04/2019 20:37

I’m currently 2 hours ahead of U.K. time. I think I’m going to go to bed and catch up tomorrow.

tobee · 01/04/2019 20:38

The late night sittings are dreadful hangover from the days when parliament was rammed with the landed gentry I believe, who came up from the country to dibble about in the affairs of state. So could only come to the House in the afternoon. Or after they'd done a bit of business in the city in the morning. Only recently has the idea family life had any effect on the sitting of parliament.

This may be wrong as is what I remember from government and politics o level that I took a million years ago. Grin