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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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vanitythynameisnotwoman · 01/04/2019 20:02

Red that's very true. It does feel like a glimmer of hope but it's probably too little too late.

Was it on here I read that even if we're headed for No Deal (my phone does the capitalising all be itself now Hmm) the EU might choose a date other than next Friday to have us leave on eg. the May 22nd date? I can't find it now - I've lurked for months but only posted the last few days...

tobee · 01/04/2019 20:02

Ooh and the clock! Lol

keepforgettingmyusername · 01/04/2019 20:02

@BigChocFrenzy isn't the mirena used to manage menopause symptoms sometimes 🤔

MissMalice · 01/04/2019 20:03

200 is still 450 against isn’t it?

I’d felt a bit more hopeful earlier but I feel like we’re just going to be locked again. Very annoyed with Labour for abstaining on Joanna Cherry’s motion.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 20:03

Are labour backing 2nd ref,

Yes ... in this particular instance. Tomorrow? Who knows ...

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:04

200 is still 450 against isn’t it?

No its 200 v 100. Only Tory MPs ultimately matter.

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keepforgettingmyusername · 01/04/2019 20:04

Thanks @Icantreachthepretzels I haven't been following as avidly today as I was out and about so trying to catch up and getting the wrong end of the stick I think.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 20:05

200 is still 450 against isn’t it?

Yes - but the 200 come entirely from the Tory party - which is a majority of tories.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:05

Newton Emerson @ newtonemerson
Do the DUP's supporters know they're voting for abstentionists?

Snigger.

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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:08

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-47778346?__twitter_impression=true

The SNP are down to 34 as one MP couldn't make it to London due to military training disrupting flights.

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BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:08

🦄🦄 The EU have repeatedly said "managed no deal" isn't going to happen from their side

There is just plain old No Deal,
with no minideals until the UK has signed up to the main bits of what it refused in the WA

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 20:10

It is really concerning how few people (including me til about a month ago) actually understand the role of the speaker and how the executive / legislative power balance works in the U.K. I imagine it's because we've haven't had a minority government for a really long time (i.e. longer than I've been alive). If only this stuff was taught in schools!

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:10

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Ken Clarke customs union plan could face bigger defeat tonight than the 6 votes last week, some MPs fear. Tory whipping much heavier tonight than last wk.

Huh?

It's supposed to be a free vote, though I feared Labour whipping for it might through a spanner in the works.

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Violetparis · 01/04/2019 20:11

I don't understand the logic in that tweet from Peston. Surely a second referendum would break up the Tory Party as much as a softer Brexit. I like Peston but I think sometimes his own desperation for a PV shows in his analysis.

TheMShip · 01/04/2019 20:11

@timfarron

@NickBoles tells me that he’s voted for a people’s vote in the indicative votes. So have I (of course), and in the spirit of compromise and finding common ground, I have also voted for Common Market 2.0

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 01/04/2019 20:11

Thanks for the advice - definitely not post natal (8 years since DCs !) so will head off to the doc.

bercow Flowers that sounds truly awful.

Random18 · 01/04/2019 20:11

I suspect my horrific mp is on that list of 200.

He was originally a remainer but will put party before constituency or country every time - and there is his career to think about.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:12

keepforgetting Sorry, I was thinking of the minipill, which can actually worsen perimenopausal symptoms
Yes, other pills can be used to alleviate symptoms

Useful link for any one in meno / peri, plus interaction of hormonal birth control

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322133.php

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 20:12

LuckyMarmiteLover On the subject of menopause I have had a PE so won’t be able to take HRT. Hope I won’t need it...I’m 52

I lost my previous reply into the ether, I think. Basically, I have had a PE, and am now happily on HRT patches. Was yours a single acute episode of PE, or do you have confirmed underlying thrombophilia?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 20:14

Whipping MPs on indicative votes only indicates how loyal they are to their party Hmm not how they feel about the actual options

Random18 · 01/04/2019 20:14

@scooby I’ve had the same for the last few years. Really since I had my 2nd over 4 years ago. I suspect it’s hereditary with me although I should really get a blood test at some point. I am really conscious about it now though

Yamayo · 01/04/2019 20:16

When are the results?

keepforgettingmyusername · 01/04/2019 20:16

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy that's an interesting read. I'm pregnant at the moment but after this one the next big change will be menopause. No more kids for me...I'm no JRM Confused

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 20:17

Cordelia I'm learning as we go. And I did a fair bit of politics at university level. Just never constitutional stuff. I think the constitutional stuff beyond the pillars of the executive, legislative and media isn't really particularly relevant 95% of the time. The trouble is the other 5% is when you actually really need it.

I think the concept of legally and politically binding is also not really one which is helpful most of the time either.

There is only so much you can learn and I'm not sure the role of the speaker is generally usually this significant. They are there to be invisible most of the time.

I do wish the principles of democracy and it being more than a vote were taught more though. Political engagement and participation and shifting the Overton window and stuff like that is much more useful for day to day politics.

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LuckyMarmiteLover · 01/04/2019 20:17

AutumnCrow - thanks for the reply - my PE was post-operative. I’m also hypothyroid (which I think you said you were) but am on NDT for that.

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