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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 19:33

Interesting and I wonder how much truth there is to this.

There is a LOT of truth to this. For Christ's sake they need to tack their PV on to CU or Norway to SAVE us from the shit storm that is 'NO Deal'.

Do none of these people have brains?

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 19:38

Been watching for 1:hr 30 mins, Barclay the minister and 1 other speaker in favour of leave, all others in that time have been remain speakers.

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 19:38

Getting anxious now. Nothing is ever clear is it and they change their minds all the bloody time and vote inconsistently.

NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 19:40

Louise, how can leavers speak if they aren't in there? There's barely anybody there to speak!

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 19:40

My mum and sis had both had hysterectomies by the time they were 35 so no idea when natural menopause happens in my family.

Some days I feel like I should just cover myself head to foot in the bloody patches and have done with it! 🤣

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 19:41

I think the Leavers have left!

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 19:41

*LouiseCollins28 The hundred or so hard Brexiteers who have left the Chamber have to take responsibility for their own absence. They can't be called if they're not there to debate.

CheekyChops666 · 01/04/2019 19:42

Shit just came on, did I miss it?

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 19:42

Can't call on em if they are holed up in a chamber whinging to each other instead of in the chamber.....

TheABC · 01/04/2019 19:42

To be fair to Leavers, all of the options are for softer Brexits. Crunchy ERG types already know what they are going to do and that they are unlikely to persuade anyone else to switch sides at this stage. Why bother turning up?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 19:43

Wasn't Norman Lamb the only LDem Leaver MP ?
iirc, he promised his constituents in 2017 that he'd support Brexit

If so, it would make sense he'd vote for softer Brexit

dreichuplands · 01/04/2019 19:44

I am a hard remainer but I just don't see us revoking so we have to have something for people to a pv to vote for or against. A Norway type plan has to be the most sensible choice in that case.

tobee · 01/04/2019 19:44

While we're on the subject I'm one of those who's had my womb removed a couple of years ago so menopause is guesswork ConfusedI'm 51 btw

There you go Louise there's Sammy for you!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 19:48

So if the 170 odd Tory MPs- many of them very odd - who want No Deal have flounced / gone to one of the subsidised bars,

how do you want Bercow to call some of them, louisecollins

send them a telgram to return to the chamber ? Hmm

LuckyMarmiteLover · 01/04/2019 19:48

On the subject of menopause I have had a PE so won’t be able to take HRT. Hope I won’t need it...I’m 52.

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 19:48

TheABC To be fair to Leavers, all of the options are for softer Brexits

That's because Leave With No Deal is the legal default. That WILL happen if Parliament doesn't come up with an alternative.

PostNotInHaste · 01/04/2019 19:48

I heard Rees Mogg, Cash and Redwood amongst a fair few others before they buggered off earlier. Am due to have injections to induce menopause before a hysterectomy later this year.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 19:50

What time is the vote.? Does everyone have to vote; apart from cabinet abstained?

BestIsWest · 01/04/2019 19:52

I’m 55 and coped fine with menopause until recently when the rage hit me. HRT has done wonders.

prettybird · 01/04/2019 19:52

Sammy Wilson's contribution seems to internally incoherent and inconsistent Confused

"We must leave but we can't be half in half out; we must not have borders but we can't be in a custom Union" Confused

At one point I thought the logic of what he was arguing was even for Revoke because he seemed to be saying that the needs of NI were incompatible with borders but then he went all hardcore again Confused

TheElementsSong · 01/04/2019 19:52

Can't call on em if they are holed up in a chamber whinging to each other instead of in the chamber.....

They're being Persecuted by the Speaker, dontcha know?

Horehound · 01/04/2019 19:52

Nobody gives a shit about the debates cause they already know what they are going to vote for. What's the point?and when is the sodding vote and the results due?

FaFoutis · 01/04/2019 19:53

bbc says they start at 8

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 19:53

Before we go into the vote shortly, I'm going to stress something. It's not necessarily the majority nor how many votes each option get which is going to be most important.

How many Conservative votes each option gets is possibly as important, if not more so.

So when the result initially comes in, don't get too excited about numbers. Yes a majority is important but if its Labour plus about 5 Conservatives and the SNP that's really not going to cut it in the eyes of May.

There has to be a good showing of Tory support too.

The results coming up, are therefore going to take a little while longer than normal to work out whether they are really useful for May one way or another.

For reference Labour currently have 245 MPs (though some can't vote as tellers), and the SNP 35. I think you can reasonably take a dozen off as rebels or tellers. Which gives you a base line of around 268.

Unless anything hits 350+ I'm not sure it's going to be terribly helpful if I'm honest. And that's probably a minimum.

I think we have to have a certain amount of realism over how Indicative Votes are really going to help given just how important the party is to the government's decision making process.

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Wenttoseainasieve · 01/04/2019 19:53

Yes the DUP seem somewhat confused by what they want.

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