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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
dreichuplands · 01/04/2019 17:16

There is no advantage to any kind of Brexit, just a minimizing of harm.
Common market 2.0 allows Brexit while minimizing damage.

RussellSprout · 01/04/2019 17:17

Well Farage is not happy with Bercow's choices, which means they must be good ones!

prettybird · 01/04/2019 17:17

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Tory MPs held their training session today on what is a customs union

“It was very useful but one person did raise the question why they hadn’t done this two years ago”

Only one?! ShockConfused

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 17:18

Oh.
My HRT is no longer available.
That's interesting.

ItstheGFAStupid · 01/04/2019 17:18

Thanks RTB. That's what I thought. We would be 'in' but have no say. Jesus.

tobee · 01/04/2019 17:18

He said he was happy to take challenges. And took them Hmm

Then time was needed for, you know, the actual debates to begin

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 17:18

.....from other parties with this plan to seek an extension to the Brexit process, and if this is not possible then parliament will choose between either no deal or revoking article 50.

Are enough likely to turn to No Deal or will they hold fast? I hope that the nastiness shown to Grieve at the weekend has made some Remainers more determined to stick to their guns. Whichever party you vote for, such behaviour was shameful.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 17:19

Well Farage is not happy with Bercow's choices, which means they must be good ones!

Who gives a shit what a non-MP thinks. If Farage is so unhappy why doesn't he get himself elected and submit his own ideas in the house of commons.

Or failing that, why doesn't he just fuck off ?

Holidayshopping · 01/04/2019 17:21

Have we had an indicative vote on a confirmatory referendum before? I’ve lost track!

Are Labour or the Tories likely to support this?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:21

He should be expecting to be challenged repeatedly. His role in this whole thing in recent weeks has been very partisan.

The Speaker's job is to assert the majority will of the HoC and to ensure that the executive is answerable to the HoC. As well as to ensure that procedure is followed correctly. It is not to serve the interests of the government first.

If there is a majority for a soft brexit in the HoC explain how he is being partisan? He is merely asserting the will of the house to hold the executive to account. Via procedure as agreed by the majority of the house.

The issue at present is that this is a minority government. Thus it is unusual. Normally the will of the house would fall behind the government by default as they have a majority of seats. It is not being partisan in this scenario.

OP posts:
Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 17:21

I hope there are a few labour rebels that vote for the Cherry motion. Though I imagine there will probably be an equal and opposite number who rebel and vote against.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 17:21

If Farage is so unhappy why doesn't he get himself elected and submit his own ideas in the house of commons.

Or join the Tories and assist the ERG to split into a new party?

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 17:22

Sorry what, it's unreasonable for a Speaker to be challenged now?!

Speaker Bercow is obviously pro-remain, were he being duly impartial an observer should be unable to see any partisanship on his part.

I can explain that the Speaker has huge discretionary power and he is IMO using those powers in such a way as to be bascially as unhelpful as possible to those who want to leave the EU.

Belindabelle · 01/04/2019 17:22

Ken Clarke age 79 sharp as a tack. He makes it into my fantasy cabinet.

colouringinpro · 01/04/2019 17:22

Mind. Boggled.

tobee · 01/04/2019 17:24

The Speaker has been challenged. He answered those challenges.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 17:24

You know this business started being mentioned last week ...

Tory MPs held their training session today on what is a customs union

It isn't an April fool is it- it being after midday and all.

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 17:25

Farage did try to get elected as an mp...7 times I believe? :)

AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 17:25

67chevvyimpala Oh. My HRT is no longer available. That's interesting.

I've been having trouble with getting the right formulation of levothyroxine which I can't not take. Making me nervous.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 17:25

Farage did try to get elected as an mp...7 times I believe?

The universe was saying something, then ....

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 17:26

he is IMO using those powers in such a way as to be bascially as unhelpful as possible to those who want to leave the EU.

I think their utter incompetence, lack of direction or understanding of how the world works - or indeed how parliament works - has been more of a hindrance to them than the speaker. We are only where we are now because they have been so shit. If they had been better, Bercow would now not have this chance to be 'unhelpful'.

BaconMushroomAndScrambledEggs · 01/04/2019 17:26

PMK for more Chamber of Horrors!

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 17:28

In order for the executive to be accountable to the House, it needs to be able to act, otherwise is has nothing to be held to account for.

He is being partisan by applying his discretion to the advantage mostly of those who want to stop Brexit.

TheMostBoringPersonEver · 01/04/2019 17:28

Right, I think I have caught up. As we know I love a bullet point list so my understanding is this (so I can explain it to the kids who are asking)

WA and PD separate. WA protects things like fishing, EHCR, etc. PD is the way forward in negotiation.

WA is not liked because of the backstop. But the backstop essentially becomes a thing anyway if we no deal? And really, we kinda need the WA because of the EHCR etc? But initially, it wasn't agreed on as it had no way forward in it yet.

Indicative votes are for the PD. Many of these will also require signing the WA. There are rumors to try and make the PD agreed way forward legally binding due to the threat of MAy/Next leader not following through with it.

So if HoC agrees on a way forward, they can tack on the agreed way forward to the WA and pass it and we go back to the EU and ask for an extension to sort it out. We will leave but leave with a direction to the negotiation.

If progress but WA still not agreed we crash out on April 12.

If no progress on indicative votes, then unlikely the WA will pass. And then we crash out on 12 April.

So from that summation, 1/3 long extension, 2/3 no deal?

corrections needed!

BestIsWest · 01/04/2019 17:29

I failed to get Naproxen anywhere. Which HRT? I know the 7 day evorel patches have been unavailable for about 6 months. I had to have twice weekly ones.

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