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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Thread gallery
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InterchangeableEmma · 01/04/2019 16:56

So that's a bigger majority on the business motion than last time, right?

NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 16:56

I'm liking his choices!

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:58

No surprises.

They are the ones which are seeming to show the most support ' chance of getting more support. Thus the No Deal ones are not being repeated.

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Songsofexperience · 01/04/2019 16:58

So if my postings occasionally seem a tad over invested, it's because I am that angry. None of this was necessary.

So sorry to hear that @DGR. I hope he wears his name with pride!
My DCs have 3 nationalities, 3 languages and cultures. My eldest (at uni) told me recently that he tells people that he's not a loaf of bread to be looked at in terms of %. He says he is different layers interwoven and simultaneously coexisting. It won't shut up the haters but at least it shows an understanding that identity is a beautifully complex thing to be cherished (and girls think he's just sooo interesting 😉)

MorelloKisses · 01/04/2019 17:01

what is the Parliamentary Supremacy motion in full?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:01

Hes getting challenged on A (someone says it had a majority on a previous vote and its not legally possible with the EU!)
And B (since its the legal default)

Bercow says neither is viable going forward as its a negogiation and the EU have repeatedly said that A is a none starter.

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CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 17:01

Excellent choices.

Motion C: customs union
The Tory former chancellor Ken Clarke’s customs union plan requires any Brexit deal to include, as a minimum, a commitment to negotiate a “permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU

Motion D: common market 2.0
The motion proposes UK membership of the European Free Trade Association (Efta) and European Economic Area. It allows continued participation in the single market and a “comprehensive customs arrangement” with the EU after Brexit – including a “UK say” on future EU trade deals – would remain in place until the agreement of a wider trade deal that guarantees frictionless movement of goods and an open border in Ireland.

Motion E: confirmatory public vote
This motion would require a public vote to confirm any Brexit deal passed by parliament before its ratification

Motion G: parliamentary supremacy
The SNP MP Joanna Cherry joins Grieve and MPs from other parties with this plan to seek an extension to the Brexit process, and if this is not possible then parliament will choose between either no deal or revoking article 50.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 17:03

So glad we have Bercow, the grown up in the House.
He makes Parliamentary debate so entertaining!

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:04

Sorry thats not clear.

Someone says A has a majority in the house before but Bercow (and me) point out its a none starter with the EU and has already been tried in effect several times thus its not a viable way to advance the situation and the process is in the interest of making progress.

In other ways he's effectively saying now that progress can only made with a softer brexit quite explicitly.

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 01/04/2019 17:04

Going to be interesting to see how the No Deal only MPs are going to vote today.

Belindabelle · 01/04/2019 17:05

Bercow taking no shit as usual. I love it.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 17:06

I hope he wears his name with pride!

He does Grin. When the time comes, and his generation start to steer the country, we'll be in good hands. All the young'uns I've met seem to have their heads screwed on. It's just the waiting ....

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:06

He's also been challenged twice about why Clark motion was allowed to be exactly the same in wording.

Bercow has made the point that the process for Indicative Votes was decided to be outside that normal convention as its about working out which option had most support by a series of rounds on the most popular options.

Hes had to take two points of order on this and repeat himself.

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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:09

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Tory MPs held their training session today on what is a customs union

“It was very useful but one person did raise the question why they hadn’t done this two years ago”

🤪🔫

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AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 17:09

Bercow on good form today, thankfully.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:11

Its going to be interesting what the reaction will be from the EU anything does get a majority.

Will they say, 'that's nice but we still need the WA'?

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ItstheGFAStupid · 01/04/2019 17:12

Would anyone see there being any advantage in having Common Marjet 2.0 over Remain?

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 17:13

He should be expecting to be challenged repeatedly. His role in this whole thing in recent weeks has been very partisan.

NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 17:13

Will they say, 'that's nice but we still need the WA'?

I'm not a betting person, but I'd put money on yes!

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:13

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall
Labour will be whipping for all the motions tonight save that of Joana Cherry’s revocation idea, on which they will abstain.

Hmm... will be interesting to see the reaction to this from the conservatives.

Atm they have a free vote. Will that hold?

If it doesn't there will be trouble. But the ERG are seriously pissed at neither A nor B being chosen.

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 17:14

He should be expecting to be challenged repeatedly. His role in this whole thing in recent weeks has been very partisan.

Can you explain that with reference to Erskine-May

BestIsWest · 01/04/2019 17:14

HOC. Even more confusing than Line of Duty.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 17:14

Would anyone see there being any advantage in having Common Marjet 2.0 over Remain?

Blue Passports???

(No. Other than to say we have discharged the referendum result to moderate leavers)

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AutumnCrow · 01/04/2019 17:15

My DP voted Leave. He thinks Bercow has been excellent. I am an ardent Remainer. I think Bercow has been excellent.

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 17:16

Ooooh I like his choices. What's his tie of choice for today? LO is watching children's tv and has cried all the way home today and has several sit down protests along the way so I'm loath to switch over. Bless him, walking to and from nursery along with a full 6 hours there was probably a bit much after being poorly last week but thanks to austerity I can't afford the bus all the time. And the school bus service was scrapped. Thanks Tories!

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