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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Thread gallery
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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 16:30

Sinn Fein met with Barnier. This has to be significant - but I'm to tired / frustrated / stupid to work out WHY it is significant. Anyone more knowledgable got a view?

I don't know.

Here's what I do know. Growing up, in the 70s and 80s, this picture would have been called a hoax. If ever there was an example that we differ by less than we share, it's this picture. This is what is being put at risk.

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:30

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar
Just spoken to a minister who thought it was almost certain the customs union option would get a majority tonight. "Cabinet will meet tomorrow to work out what the hell we do next."

Boom.

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67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 16:31

They will start communicating via owl soon ffs

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 16:32

About to drive so can’t copy it across but this is the link to the leave/electoral commission story on twitter

mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1112736782913814528

JamAndCroissants · 01/04/2019 16:33

Pmk for more parliamentary madness Wine
A GE is the last thing loathsome Leadsome would want, seeing as she got in last time by the skin of her teeth 😬😬

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:33

DG I'm sorry & disgusted your son is being asked questions about his / your non-British surname Sad

I hope he doesn't get worried that your family might have to leave - even the nastiest Tory Home Offiice can't touch you, iirc about your circs.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:35

Oh, so there could be at least one upside to a GE !
Loathsome booted out on her nasty arse ?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:38

I'm seeing a lot more pessimism about the Common Market 2.0 motion than Peston is suggesting

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar
Despite speculation about Common Market 2.0, it's still going to be tough for it to get through.
Ken Clarke's customs union option, which was defeated by just 6 votes last week, remains by far the more likely option MPs coalesce round.

As part of a thread by @domwalsh13

The Columnist @Sime0nStylites
No no that’s great. So I’m broadly at Labour - 20 for CM2.01 which gets us to 225 + 35 SNP = 260 + 35 Cons = 295 vs 316 required adjusted for, say, 40 abstentions (LD+DUP+Cabinet) which makes it v close indeed.
twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/status/1112729621148172291

He then revised it downward to the 275 - 295 range.

Views on the numbers being repeated by Peston were deeply skeptical.

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tobee · 01/04/2019 16:38

Yes but also the less loathsome Amber Rudd (and the rest)

howabout · 01/04/2019 16:41

Just catching up so NRTFR but Andrea got 62% of the vote share at the last GE. Boris, IDS and Amber are probably bothered (and shaky as Leadership candidates as a result) but her not so much.

Now that Labour are backing Common Market 2.0 it looks like Conservatives backed into Hard Brexit to have any chance in a GE?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:41

Jo Maugham QCC@JolyonMaugham*

So @GoodLawProjectt^ sued the Electoral Commission about its flawed investigation into whether

(1) the DUP broke the law by accepting a “donation” from the CRC and

(2) the CRC committed an offence by treating it as a donation rather than expenditure.

......

In summary, the Electoral Commission reckons – wrongly – there is a legal impediment to it finding Vote Leave committed further offences –
and so has decided there is no public interest in investigating whether it did.

Jaw dropping.

ShockShockConfusedConfused

https://waitingfortax.com/2018/09/19/the-dup-its-dodgy-donor-and-how-the-electoral-commission-let-them-both-off-the-hook/

•	The DUP’s Treasurer, Gregory Campbell, gave an on-the-record interview to <a class="break-all" href="https://www.source-material.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">SourceMaterial</a>. 

That interview was recorded and, assuming he told the truth, the shadowy Constitutional Research Council, which gave £435,000 to the DUP, looks to have broken the law

•	<span class="italic">If Mr Campbell was telling the truth, both he and the DUP are also likely to have broken the law.</span>
RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:41

Kate McCann @KateEMcCann
MPs are now voting on whether indicative votes should go ahead this afternoon and whether more time should be allowed on Wednesday. After that Speaker chooses what they vote on (if it passes...)

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BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:44

I'd be much happier if Ken Clarke's CU passes, because at least it won't be rejected by the EU

We've no time to do anything else, if the HoC are stupid enough to vote for a PD which e.g they think can replace the WA / backstop

Whatever PD MPs pass - if anything - it's meaningless unless they also pass the WA

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 16:45

One of the 'crimes' that 'leavers' witter on about is EU 'corruption'.
I don't doubt there is but I am not the one throwing stones in greenhouses.

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 16:47

Hang on? Andrea Leadsom's majority in her South Northamptonshire seat is 22,840! not what I'd call the "skin of her teeth!"

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:48

BCF the government would find it hard to back CM2 cos of FoM.

My feeling is that the Clark Amendment can evolve to Single Market alignment to eliminate the backstop in time. Its not ideal but its more viable than CM2 at this stange cos of time restraints.

CM2 as a concept was doable some weeks ago, but its far too late now.

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1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 16:48

Not really followed Ken Clarkes points but hearing him interviewed a month or so back although he seemed disappointed at the prospect of the UK leaving he was at least open to compromise to make things as good as they could be.

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 16:49

he seemed disappointed at the prospect of the UK leaving he was at least open to compromise to make things as good as they could be

This was pretty much the attitude of every remain voter I know.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 16:50

DG I'm sorry & disgusted your son is being asked questions about his / your non-British surname

Well I had it, I guess, so it's only fair (teachers calling me an Eyetie. Mind you it's better than "paki" which my friend got).

I hope he doesn't get worried that your family might have to leave - even the nastiest Tory Home Offiice can't touch you, iirc about your circ

Well I was born her, DM was British. DF refused to become British as (at the time) it meant renouncing Italian citizenship. However he did (and it was quite an argument, apparently, although I wasn't there Grin) insist on registering our births with the consulate. Meaning it was relatively straightforward to get my passport Smile.

Until 5 years ago, I would never have bothered to mention my Italian citizenship - as several cvs will prove ...

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 16:51

I'm not even pretending yo know what's going on but will be reading and watching with interest tonight.

Will all the votes actually make any difference though??

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 16:54

he seemed disappointed at the prospect of the UK leaving he was at least open to compromise to make things as good as they could be

But that has to be balanced by an admission from Leavers that it's not as good as what we've got. Otherwise it's not really going to fly.

Yes, I will get the coach from NY to LA because you had a bad feeling about flying. But don't you dare try and tell me it's because it's "better than flying", or you can walk and I'll stay here ....

(is the dynamic there).

Horehound · 01/04/2019 16:54

Pmk

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:55

Business motion to allow Indicative Votes
Ayes 322
Noes 277

So we have indicative votes.
(No surprises here)

Bercow calls for Motions C (clark) d (boles) e (Kyle) g (cherry)

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tobee · 01/04/2019 16:56

Any surprises in Mr Speaker's choices?

tobee · 01/04/2019 16:56

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