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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 15:51

Continuity- sounds like they just wanted to speak to him regardless as that is an unusual situation all round. He pinged the radar in some way!

Notice in another thread, one posters openly stating that having a "foreign" name was an immediate mark of "unBritishness", so there's an underlying xenophobia going on here.

DS went all through school with nary a negative comment on his (my) surname - just an interest in it's origins. Now it's just "so is your Dad staying, then ?". He's too young to get upset. And not old enough not to be angry.

Yet Sad.

So if my postings occasionally seem a tad over invested, it's because I am that angry. None of this was necessary.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 15:51

The thing with the vote on Friday was it was brexit day. People like JRM and Boris folded because they couldn't vote against brexit on brexit day. It was emotive and patriotic (not that they have emotions or patriotism - but they fake them for the masses) Now that day has passed there is no longer that hold on them. She may find - if she brings it back for a fourth time - that she loses by an even bigger margin this time round.

The sensible thing to do is for parliament to create a PD that both a majority of them and the EU can live with. And then put that plus W.A to a public vote vs remain. Then - whilst one parliament can't bind it's successor - if the W.A/ P.D won the referendum it would at least contain whoever followed TM a little (in theory) as there would be a mandate from the electorate for it.

Of course - this is precisely what the original referendum should have been but - hey ho - no point crying over spilt milk.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 15:52

The thing with the vote on Friday was it was brexit day.

Yes, that quietly slipped under the radar, didn't it ?

The problem with slowly deflating dreams, is you end up with a floppy bit of rubber to wave around. Not really a great finish ....

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 15:53

@woman19 didn't they do that last week too, what's new this time?
anyhow can't see that the business motion won't be carried.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 15:55

If ever there were a clearer demonstration of a separation of subject and state, it's MPs being allowed to change their minds and re-vote, while the serfs just suck it up.

With all this talk of "2.0" who's up for a "Peasants Revolt 2.0" ?

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 15:57

The BBC, occasionally known as 'auntie'.
The sort of aunt that would slip bromide into your drink to stop 'midnight shenanigans' when you go to stay.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:59

Can't help wondering how much that Nazi Poo in the Street Fest, at which proscribed groups had a free pass,( the 'pro brexit rally in Westminster)

Which was advertised in this radicalisation portal so generously and not hidden in the brexit threads Hmm

Has been choreographed to block HOC IV and so forth.er

LouiseCollins28 · 01/04/2019 16:00

"serfs just suck it up" Wow what a lovely sentiment for your fellow voters.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 16:03

"serfs just suck it up" Wow what a lovely sentiment for your fellow voters.

I think the idea behind that sentiment is that is what the government thinks of the electorate - not what DGR thinks of them Hmm

Nuance.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 16:08

"serfs just suck it up" Wow what a lovely sentiment for your fellow voters.

deliberately misquoting to try and misrepresent something isn't really a great look. Mark Francois tried it with Will Self and came off looking like a prize twat. The only reason it escaped too much coverage is that he went in looking like a prize twat, and the old saying about no news still applies in Brexit Britain.

nuttynutjob · 01/04/2019 16:14

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/opinion/theresa-may.html Theresa May: Worst Politician Ever]]

nuttynutjob · 01/04/2019 16:15

Theresa May: Worst Politician Ever

TheMShip · 01/04/2019 16:18

Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
·
2m
Jenkins: "The problem with this process of indicative votes, is that MPs are free to pick and choose policies they like."

Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
Chamber bursts into laughter. Ken Clarke laughing his head off. Yes Bernard, that's sort of the point.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 16:18

Theo Usherwood @theousherwood
Understand members of the ERG have been asked to meet with the PM between 4.45pm and 5.15pm.

OP posts:
ClashCityRocker · 01/04/2019 16:18

Robert Peston
(@Peston)
So @CiceroGlobal have crunched the numbers and have @NickBoles's Common Market 2.0 motion winning by 307 to 253, now that Labour are whipping in favour of it. As the least Brexity of all the Brexit options, that would put an enormous predatory cat among the Tory pigeons...

April 1, 2019

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 16:21

16:20 - 1 hour 20 minutes after we were expecting something about the Electoral Commission ...

Mallardia · 01/04/2019 16:22

May and Grayling must be ever so proud to have had articles written about them by the New York Times no less...

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:23

It would be even funnier if the EU refuse to accept CM2.0 - if it is really trying to replce the WA and do away with the backstop.

tobee · 01/04/2019 16:23

Isn't it lovely seeing all these Brexiteers tag teaming?

tobee · 01/04/2019 16:24

I add Hmmfor the hard of nuanced

chocolateworshipper · 01/04/2019 16:26

Sinn Fein met with Barnier. This has to be significant - but I'm to tired / frustrated / stupid to work out WHY it is significant. Anyone more knowledgable got a view?

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 16:27

Watching parliament. What is Rees Mogg whittering on about?
Both jrm and Andrea leadsom are throwing toys out of the pram because parliament is setting the order of business Thank god.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:28

The PD has only political force

  • so it dies if a new PM / govt has an HoC majority for something else

The WA is a legally binding international treaty

  • which is why it's the only thing the EU care about .... providing the PD contains no unicorn party

if a future PM violates any part of the WA, not only could the EU remove transition privileges on ztrade, agencies etc,
but they could sue the UK in the ECJ or at least ICJ (International Court of Justice)

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 16:29

Yay Amma Soubry challenging jrm on changing vote.
He is so rude to even his colleagues

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 16:29

Barnier has been meeting anyone with a legitimate interest, even Farage, the DUP & the ERG

(Barnier has a strong stomach, but I hope he hasn't acquired ulcers)