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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 15:25

In theory safer, that is, I know that it can be ignored.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 15:25

Can anyone explain why the cabinet have to abstain from voting?

The concept of collective cabinet responsibility of final decisions of government. This is to show that the PM isn't acting alone and to prevent the PM being exposed alone to any later repercussions. It's supposed to be a check on the power of the PM and to demonstrate the oversight and support of others.

Which is why they keep on all threatening to quit.

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woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:25

@chrispherhope
BREAKING Theresa May is holding a mass meeting with some of the 170 Conservative MPs who signed a letter to her demanding the UK leaves the EU on April 12 ‘with or without a deal’.

MPs have been sent text messages - seen by The Telegraph - asking them to be ready to meet Mrs May

The Telegraph understands the letter was just three paragraphs long and asked Mrs May to move towards leaving the EU with no deal.
MPs signed it in person which means no electronic copies exist

Written in Wizard ink.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 15:26

The complete failure of the BBC - through it's reporters - to challenge any of the bollocks leave have spouted (and continue to do so) over the past 3 years would be reason enough. Add to that the ongoing presentation of Leavers as being 90% and Remainers 10% of any debate, plus the generally aggressive questioning of remainers when contrasted with the "shall I just play with your cock while you dribble meaningless phrases into the microphone" approach to Leavers just completes the circle.

The BBC should really not be allowed to do news anymore. Which was a given aim of the Murdoch empire from day one of Sky (I know !).

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 01/04/2019 15:27

Red thank you once again for your excellent explanation . Could you make that one you posted at 14.55 bold and send it to every fucking journalist we know.

This is getting ridiculous!

woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:28

@tnewtondunn
I hear Cabinet will sit for a marathon FIVE hours tomorrow to decide what to do on Brexit - political Cabinet from 9am-12pm, then full Cabinet 1-3pm.

And why would a political Cabinet sit without any civil servants present for 3 hours? To discuss, among other things, a General Election.

They can crash us out and simultaneously dissolve parl and call GE, no?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 15:31

Simply because a vote stands as political binding until it is over turned by a new mandate. (similar to how manifestos are regarded). A vote in the HoC may also be legally binding (but not always).

The indicative vote process is currently politically binding, but in theory whatever comes out on top could be made legally binding at some point. A PM would have to break the law or repeal the law to go against it.

The problem comes with a pm who actively decides to break the law. How do you persue them and hold them to account and address that? It's not necessarily as easy as just arresting them and prosecuting them because of the latent power that the office of PM holds.

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prettybird · 01/04/2019 15:32

It was me who consciously started calling the BBC the "state broadcaster" (although others may have done so previously) and it has caught on.

It might not be as bad as other state broadcasters but it is still "the state broadcaster", viz until as late as 1990, MI5 vetting personnel employed by the BBC to ensure no "subversives" were taken on, and the requirement of the BBC under its charter to be "impartial".

I probably have a somewhat jaded view of it, after my experience of its "balanced" reporting during the Indyref Hmm

NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 15:32

Hence rumblings about forcing a Bill to make it legally binding as TM can't be trusted to implement anything which isn't her idea?

KoraBora · 01/04/2019 15:34

Continuity- sounds like they just wanted to speak to him regardless as that is an unusual situation all round. He pinged the radar in some way!

God I just want this whole sodding thing to be over. Sick of thinking about it all now. Just eaten my emergency Scampi Fries and feel a bit sick.

Musicalstatues · 01/04/2019 15:35

Thank you @RedToothBrush

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 15:35

Yep. Cos may can't be trusted on anything politically binding (on her word) so has to be made to do stuff by the threat of the law.

It's really rather sad.

And dangerous.

What happens if the next PM decides to go further and just test what happens if they break the law?

Observing politically binding arrangements were an additional layer of protection against abuse of power that has essentially been removed.

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tobee · 01/04/2019 15:36

As far as I can tell, Director General Lord Hall is now under the thumb of the government in order to keep its licence fee for the current term. The whole point of the existence of the bbc to be an independent and impartial broadcaster, able to produce quality programmes to appeal to a wide range of people, without needing to be funded by advertising, has been pushed pretty much to its limit.

It's pretty depressing. But maybe inevitable. I think the problem mostly arising from this is that, at least the older, general members of the public may well not be aware of thiis.

woodpigeons · 01/04/2019 15:36

Thank you Red. I’m on a steep learning curve here.
But if the WA is passed this week, before the PD is ratified, presumably May will stay on until it is to prevent a hardline successor ignoring it and causing us to crash out.
I understand what you say about contempt of parliament but think if we get Boris as PM the brakes are off.
He seems to have already been in contempt of everything possible and could see being in contempt of parliament as a ‘jolly jape’.

tobee · 01/04/2019 15:37

Sorry to be inarticulate

woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:38

Had dinner with a BBC producer at w/e. They've lost 25% of funding with the free OAP licences; they are up the spout financially too.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:38

@bbclaurak
Bet you a fiver he’ll withdraw support for May’s deal

he= Mogg

Quelle surprise.

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 15:41

Ian Dunt
‏*@IanDunt*
Things getting off to a weird start today. Tory Brexiter Richard Drax makes a personal statement to the Commons: "I should not have voted with the govt on Friday afternoon".

This is bizarre. Just change your vote then man. "I have let down good friends here in the House. I say sorry to the DUP for voting for a deal that could risk the integrity of our country. The withdrawal agreement as it stands must never see the light of day again."

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 15:42

whoops, accidentally posted too soon!

Ian Dunt
@IanDunt

"If the Pm cannot commit to taking us out the EU on April 12th she must resign immediately." Blokes off the fucking reservation.

Well anyway. Looks like the PM now has to find even more converts to her deal.

HazardGhost · 01/04/2019 15:42

Any update on the commission and the leave campaign? Or was it just hot air?

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 15:44

They can crash us out and simultaneously dissolve parl and call GE, no?

Only with Labour support.

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 15:45

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
I understand that the story is with (1) lawyers and (2) the Electoral Commission. Should be up around 3pm (barring eg an injunction).

Spex
‏@_Hydrofish
How explosive on a scale of 1 to 10? One being ‘Boris didn’t pay for some paperclips’ and Ten being ‘Charges and arrests’?

Jo Maugham QC
‏**@JolyonMaugham**
Replying to @_Hydrofish
It's not gonna change the world. But there have been some genuine WTAF moments when I've told very experienced journos and lawyers.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 15:47

@IanDunt

Extremely dangerous precedent for our democracy etc. Leadsom confirms the govt will be opposing the business motion.

HazardGhost · 01/04/2019 15:49

Ta Ewe

prettybird · 01/04/2019 15:50

Drax: I say sorry to the DUP and the Honourable Member for Vauxhall Shock for voting for a deal that could risk the integrity of our country.

Said "Honourable" Hmm Member did at least look surprised at being name checked Wink - but it is further evidence that she is not a Labour MP but in reality is a DUP MP on secondment Angry

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