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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Thread gallery
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Runningintothesunset · 01/04/2019 13:45

That Emily Thornberry interview on WatO on R4 was a car crash - she didn’t know that the Labour Party hadn’t got an amendment today. I had to switch it off as I couldn’t bear hearing someone making a fool of themselves

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 13:47

I'm pleased in a way that the only mention of Gisela Stuart for 3 years has been in relation to the Leave spending investigation ...

KoraBora · 01/04/2019 13:49

BigChocFrenzy I am a dual British/Irish National and lived in NI on and off. This talk of conspiracy is nuts and could be frightening many people. I understand exactly the issue but posters are going over the top and painting it into something it is not.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 13:51

What about if they also qualify for eg Belgian citizenship eg becase dad is from Belfast and mum from Ghent? Will they not recognise that either?

My understanding when I originally read it was that it applied to all dual EU/Brit citizens. (though as there will be no EU rights in an non-EU country it's pretty ho hum - because Britain can't stop a person's other nation from recognising them as a citizen, they will still retain full EU rights within the EU. No one will have them in Britain - because you don't get EU rights outside of the EU.)
But it's contentious in NI because it means enforcing British citizenship on people who don't want it. Though there is a chance that this was just a heavy handed and poorly done attempt to explain that Irish in NI (or Britain) don't have to apply for settled status as they are de facto British - unlike people from the ROI. Whilst people from ROI may one day face an Irish windrush, the people of Derry are not going to get kicked out.

As the case of the Irish in Ni person attempting to bring in an American husband shows - this has been govt policy for a while - Irish in Ni are not counted as rEU (rEU citizens can bring a non-EU spouse into Britain under FOM - but British citizens cannot, we have to get them a visa). It is only now brexit is happening that they have written it down.
The choice to not allow British citizens access to that EU law whilst in Britain was probably far more to do with limiting arranged marriages for passports from Pakistan than it was ever anti-EU or anti-GFA policy.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:53

afaik, it is only Irish citizenship that would be ignored, not citizenship of other EU countries
So a joint Irish-Belgian national would be treated as a Belgian national

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:55

Kora Were you born in NI ?
If not, your Irish citizenship would be recognised

Maybe you should reassure Math, who is Irish, about her elderly relatives, if you actually have better info than she does

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 13:55

Whatever it really means it is indicative of the underhand measures that are being taken in the background while ignoring the need to form UK unity and actually resolve the big questions at hand.
How much other skullduggery is going on?

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 13:57

was probably far more to do with limiting arranged marriages for passports from Pakistan than it was ever anti-EU or anti-GFA policy.

I can well believe that, and since precious few in Parliament have bothered to read the GFA, it turned out to be one of those unintended consequences.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:01

It does look to be against the basic principle of the GFA, which was allowing those born & living in NI to be British or Irish, as they chose

If Irish citizens born in NI are disadvantaged compared to irish citizens born elsewhere, that would be bitterly resented

and is so stupid that it makes one think it is a concession to the DUP

However, I admit UK govts have done some very nasty things in Ireland both during and since the Troubles,
so I suppose this particular bit of nastiness could just be Tories being Tory

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 14:02

It is not for the UK to decide who is and is not an Irish citizen. Iftge UK wants to piss on the rights of EU nationals that must be ALL EU nationals. That's going to go well.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 14:03

Emily Thornberry would be a disaster as next labour leader. For many reasons.

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BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:03

Yes, it could be general spite against furrin, with the usual Tory ignorance that the GFA - and the EU - give protections to Irish people that other nationalities don't have.

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 14:05

It is not for the UK to decide who is and is not an Irish citizen.

To be fair, it doesn't seem they are doing that. What they are doing is treating Irish citizens born in NI as though they are dual nationals.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 14:05

I think the statement was on the end of the last thread. I'm sure that when I read it I got the impression that (for example) DGRs Italian citizenship would mean nothing in brexit Britain. But it would still mean something in Italy - which is where it is important. Similarly for Chevy's new Irish citizenship. The Irish/ italian bit will be recognised as we recognise dual citizenship - but the fact that it confers EU citizenship now means nothing... but that isn't surprising in a non EU country.
They would still have full access to their EU citizens rights the moment they stepped foot onto EU soil. Plus the right to go to a member states embassy in a foreign nation if their own country did not have an embassy near by.
They will not have EU citizen rights in Britain post brexit - but nobody will - just as you wouldn't if you moved to America.

The contention is the forcing of British citizenship on Irish citizens in NI. But as the case with the american husband shows - that's always been a thing. Now other EU laws will no longer apply, Irish in NI will now be more equal to the rest of Ireland than they were before, whilst living in Britain. But that is because the rights of Irish people will have been dragged down as EU protections and law no longer apply.

A NI/ Belgian citizen born in NI would still be classed as British - though they would have access to both Irish and Belgian passports. The Irish and the Belgian will be recognised in Britain - it just won't get them any EU rights - because EU rights don't exist in brexit Britain. But, unlike purely Irish or purely Belgian citizens, they won't have to apply for settled status.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:05

Nicole Sykes@NicoleSykes_ (CBI)

1st call of the day is with a car firm that’s shut down production & doesn’t know when it‘ll start up again.
2nd with biz trying to work out how to manage contingency stock (which needs to sell) to then stockpile next season’s products.

Extension, while essential, solves nothing.

KoraBora · 01/04/2019 14:08

Kora Were you born in NI ?
If not, your Irish citizenship would be recognised

I wasn't born in NI. But the issue arises due to dual nationality. It is not that the other citizenship isn't recognised but that when you are a dual national your other citizenship isn't relevant apart from in very specific cases.

It is a big issue in NI due to the terms of the GFA and how that aligns with other UK law and the right to choose your own identity. I am actually surprised this hasn't popped up before now.

I don't get to settle a non-EU spouse in the UK as under UK rules my additional Irish Nationality does not matter. I am a UK citizen subject to UK rules. If I went to Ireland I would be considered an Irish Citizen subject to Irish rules and my UK citizenship would not be relevant.

What are Maths particular concerns about her relatives? I am very concerned about further increased violence and tension rather than nationality issues at present.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 14:08

I never cease of telling a story of my youth where our stretch of a 400-house road (about 100 houses) did not have a Silver Jubilee Street party because one of the residents who was a Conservative councillor objected. Apparently there were "too many Indians" living there.

So no street party for us. Meanwhile, he was at the council party - no danger of him missing out.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:10

pretzels iirc, settled status gave a few additional rights to EU citizens, e.g. bringing in relatives

It does seem that Irish citizens born in NI are losing some existing rights by being treated as British only
If that is the case, then whatever the justification, it will go down very badly and may infringe the GFA

Math was worried about people like her elderly relatives.
Maybe after she's woken up in the USA, she can see if that link quoted would ease her fears

Sostenueto · 01/04/2019 14:11

Joanna Cherry (g) looks good. Don't know if Berkow will pick it.Hmm. Its if a deal hasn't passed and no deal has been rejected than straight revoke of article 50.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 14:12

I think the statement was on the end of the last thread. I'm sure that when I read it I got the impression that (for example) DGRs Italian citizenship would mean nothing in brexit Britain. But it would still mean something in Italy - which is where it is important.

Aside from visiting relatives with no hassle, the most important bit is the FoM - being able to work anywhere in the EU27 without a moments thought. At least I know whatever happens, I'll qualify for some of the jobs that require the right to live and work in the EU. (That's if Belgium appeals. An awful lot of roles in Ghent and Liege ?)

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:15

Removing existing rights looks a provocative act by the UK govt
If they genuinely don't want an upsurge in violence, then it was a very stupid move

Even this Tory govt wouldn't ethnically cleanse Irish citizens from Derry, but the worry would probably be for elderly Irish citizens in GB and for their non-EU partners

woman19 · 01/04/2019 14:16

@PaulBrandITV
NEW: Labour whips meeting in 15 mins to deciding whipping operation for tonight. Sounds like they could whip for Common Market 2.0. Labour sources tell me it’s moving in that direction and two backers of the plan reckon they’re close to securing support. All eyes 👀 on Labour.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 14:18

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
Labour to whip for Common Market 2.0

Sam Coates seems to be under the impression they have already taken the decision!

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BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:19

Yes, Amendment G !
I fear it has no chance, though

Unclear whether the HoC would prefer No Deal to Revoke, but some of them still seem to think they must
"keep No Deal on the table to strengthen the UK's negotiating hand"

We are soooo far past the time when that is relevant, is it ever was.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 14:20

Let's just hope someone checked latest version of CM2.0 with the EU .....