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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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tobee · 01/04/2019 14:22

Emily Thornberry does not have the temperament to be Labour leader as well as not having political acumen. Or a grasp of facts.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 14:23

We are soooo far past the time when that is relevant, is it ever was
Unfailingly polite and decorous as the EU 27 negotiators are; they do know that the british aren't the sharpest tools in the drawer.

CoffeeRunner · 01/04/2019 14:24

Sorry to be a bit thick here - you all seem so much more knowledgeable than me - but, if one of these amendments does get through today (common market for example), is it automatic that the EU will accept/allow it as part of the WA?

Or could they still just say “no, the WA as it stands or no deal”?

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 14:25

You aren't being thick. You are spot on.

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 14:26

The hope is that if we come up with an alternative that we can get a parliamentary majority for and it is something the EU will accept, tweaks can be made to the EU timetable. Based on ...... hope.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 14:26

{Even this Tory govt wouldn't ethnically cleanse Irish citizens from Derry,}

In some extra reading, following a link from the Westminsterenders thread many months ago, I found reference to a 'plan' suggested in the early 1970's to actually do this. It wasn't implemented obviously.
I forget which group of citizens were to be 'removed'.

CoffeeRunner · 01/04/2019 14:27

Ah, thank you for that.

So all of this palaver really could be for absolutely nothing.

PowerBadgersUnite · 01/04/2019 14:27

I changed my name again as I missed the Badgers. Last time though.

Am I right in thinking the EU27 have indicated they are open to CM2.0 but that we would still need the WA to pass?

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 14:29

But the issue arises due to dual nationality.

But some Irish citizens in NI totally reject the idea that they have dual nationality. Under the GFA they have the right to solely identify as Irish citizens. But under UK Home Office rules this right is being ignored.

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 14:30

@CoffeeRunner , the big ticking clock is until 12 April which is the date by which we decide whether we are in the EU elections or not.
A fudge could probably be cooked up but then there is another ticking clock to the date of the EU elections at 23 May. The last thing the EU want is high drama over Brexit just before the elections to the EU parliament.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 14:30

Sorry to be a bit thick here - you all seem so much more knowledgeable than me - but, if one of these amendments does get through today (common market for example), is it automatic that the EU will accept/allow it as part of the WA?

Not only is it not "automatic", it's not even a possibility.

Or could they still just say “no, the WA as it stands or no deal”?

That's what they are saying. And have all along.

Imagine you saw a sofa you really liked in M&S. You pop in, and M&S explain that it's £100 a month for 24 months and it's only available in red, for delivery.

You go away with your DP, and you have a discussion in your house and decide that you want to collect it, in black, for £50 a month for 48 months.

You get back to M&S and explain that you've decided on your deal instead.

Imagine the M&S response ... it won't just be "fuck off". It'll be an M&S "fuck off" ....

PowerBadgersUnite · 01/04/2019 14:30

Sounds painful...

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 14:31

"Imagine the M&S response ... it won't just be "fuck off". It'll be an M&S "fuck off" ...."

I love it.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 14:31

{So all of this palaver really could be for absolutely nothing.}

Unless the UK can present a solid, workable and 'enforceable' plan with evidence of proper support in the UK to the EU by first thing on 10 April it is largely for nothing.

usuallydormant · 01/04/2019 14:33

In fairness, I think the whole Irish / British citizenship is a result of a series of fudges over the years and it was all made easier with the EU as the field was levelled and we didn't have to ask too many questions.

Irish citizens do currently have more rights than EU citizens in the UK regardless of which side of the border they were born. For example, we are allowed to vote in all elections if resident in the UK (and the same is true of UK citizens in RoI). I believe there are also social welfare benefits - e.g. UK citizens can claim dole in Ireland easier than other EU citizens. Irish citizens can join the UK police and army. These are not necessarily to do with the the GFA, it is due to a series of laws, including that 1949 act ( which I should clarify, treats Irish as non foreign / commonwealth rather than British per se) and reciprocal acts in Ireland based on our shared histories and laws. Add the GFA and EU rights into the mix and it gets extremely complicated.

However, with Brexit, a lot of the fudge is begining to fall apart and it is difficult to untangle legally. The rights of the Irish in the UK are not set in stone, and if the GFA is essentially torn up under a no deal brexit, what will happen? None of us EU citizens thought our choices and rights would be removed in the way Brexit is doing, and the Windrush generation didn't expect to have their right to remain questioned either. It's not trying to scaremonger, it is just alerting people to potential issues.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 14:35

Any 'plan' the UK might come up with has to be presented for the EU summit on 10 April. The PM (could be Mrs May) will present the plan and will then be ushered out to drink coffee/gin while the EU negotiators consider the plan.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 14:36

^Removing existing rights looks a provocative act by the UK govt
If they genuinely don't want an upsurge in violence, then it was a very stupid move^

As the case with the American husband shows - they have been treating all NI born Irish in the UK as British regarding rights for a while now - and definitely since before brexit.

Brexit is removing rights from every single British citizen. That's what it is about. The decision to class anyone with a right to be British as being British - and therefore no longer EEA citizens whilst in Britain - is presumably to prevent a scenario we already talked about here - where there are two classes of British citizen - those who retain EU rights through accident of birth and those who have had them removed because they are solely British.

It puts everyone 'British' on a level playing field and everyone 'foreign' having to jump through whatever hoops the Home office decides.

PowerBadgersUnite · 01/04/2019 14:37

I may be a bit fuddled due to med changes yesterday, but I think the confusion is coming about because people (meaning MPs in particular) don't seem to understand the difference between the WA and the PD and what is a replacement for what. My understanding is that CM2.0 is a perfectly fine future relationship idea to start those negotiations with but not a replacement for the WA. So agreeing it is lovely and fine, but not the full answer the EU27 require.

Please tell me if I've got this all wrong by the way.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 14:37

For some reason the 'Cadbury's Smash' robots came to mind.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 01/04/2019 14:39

Does anyone know if the CM 2.0 has a PV stipulation on it?

ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 14:40

KoraBora I’d like to share your optimism, but would point out that last time DH travelled on his Irish passport (domestically) the immigration officer at Luton gave him a massive grilling, down to “do you have the right to stay in the UK”. Maybe he was just an idiot who didn’t understand Irish citizens rights in the UK, but it was still unpleasant.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 14:42

PowerBadgersUnite
At lease you have a decent excuse!
CM2...75 can only happen AFTER the WA as it stands is signed.
If it is a cunning plan with widespread support then the EU would take a good look at it and try to make it work even if the official line at the moment is 'No'. If they went into the void of suggesting they would even glance at it now, nothing will ever get done.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 14:43

if the GFA is essentially torn up under a no deal brexit, what will happen?

What tends to happen to countries that unilaterally abandon treaties ? Sanctions ? Diplomatic measures ? Re-evaluation of other bilateral treaties ?

havingtochangeusernameagain · 01/04/2019 14:50

I’d like to share your optimism, but would point out that last time DH travelled on his Irish passport (domestically) the immigration officer at Luton gave him a massive grilling, down to “do you have the right to stay in the UK”. Maybe he was just an idiot who didn’t understand Irish citizens rights in the UK, but it was still unpleasant

I find it astonishing that border staff are so clueless (though why was he showing a passport if he was flying in from Ireland, does Luton not have a separate "domestic" section (to include Ireland, IOM and Channel Islands?) Mind you, until quite recently, if you had the misfortune to fly to Heathrow on a Sunday you were confronted by a bunch of disinterested unprofessional miseries wearing cardigans and chewing gum. At least now they wear uniforms and treat you with professionalism.

PowerBadgersUnite · 01/04/2019 14:51

CM2...75 can only happen AFTER the WA as it stands is signed.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'm assuming a CM2 could be noted in the PD though as the plan for the future relationship.