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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
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woman19 · 01/04/2019 13:06

@paulwaugh
Just as important @SteveBakerHW says he'd rather have a long extension to Brexit than May's deal. This is where we could be heading folks. Depends on how Letwin and others engineer it to force PM to make such an extension request

They are cheeky gets.

'Long extension, my arse.' would be Verhofstadt's Jim Royle channeling response.

We're the plague village Eyam and need to do what they did to save Britain to save the EU.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35064071

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:08

Thanks, red That has been my concern re CM2.0 from the beginning - and now they've added even more possible unicorny bits

Ridiculous that options at this stage include anything that might be refused by the EU 🤦🏻‍♀️ 🤬

it would be a probable No Deal if any are chosen, since there will be no time to choose something else if the EU say NO on 10 April

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 13:08

{Looks like the UK govt is imposing British citizenship on those born in NI; even on Irish Nationalists who choose to take Irish citizenship}

Thus boosting 'British' numbers in NI to make possible reunification more difficult.

The whole thing is just so underhand and shitty.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 13:09

It is like watching a very badly organised children's birthday party.

Lots of grabbing cake, pushing, shoving, shouting, telling on people, crying, telling on people and throwing up. Envy

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 13:14

@GlennBBC
Confirmation from @IanBlackfordMP of SNP support for @nickboles Common Market 2.0

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:20

The focus is almost all on what MPs & Brexit voters would accept and far too little on what the EU would.

That link upthread is typical of what I have been hearing in Germany for the last year

  • the German deputy foreign minister calling Brexit a "shitshow" and criticising the upper class elite who caused it, but won't suffer the pain

He and the new CDU leader, who'll take over later from Merkel, have both focused on the mess that populists cause, such as Brexit

Of course, Brexiters prefer to quote the AfD - the Nazi apologists - who criticised the EU for letting it get to the stage of a referendum
However, even the AfD don't dare say to risk the Single Market to help Britain

  • which is what giving in to Cameron's demands or the post-ref cake demands, would have meant.
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:22

What happens if CM2.0 is voted as the MPs' choice .....

and then the EU says "fuck off, the backstop stays, the WA stays" ? Hmm

  • which is what the EU would do, unless they blink
KoraBora · 01/04/2019 13:22

OFFS can we give up with the hyperbolic bullshit about NI now. It's not some grand conspiracy, this arose before Brexit and would be relevant if it had never happened.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:24

The Times reported that International Development Secretary Penny Mordaunt and Transport Secretary Chris Grayling have threatened to quit the Cabinet if May pivots toward a CU

What an inducement !

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 13:25

What happens if CM2.0 is voted as the MPs' choice .....

and then the EU says "fuck off, the backstop stays, the WA stays" ? hmm
- which is what the EU would do, unless they blink

'No Deal' versus 'Revoke' High Noon showdown

or BEG for extension and find out the EU's conditions if they even allow us to extend (2nd vote, election, very very long extension while we sit on the naughty step)

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 13:28

Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham
There's a new and (I think) jaw-dropping Electoral Commission/Vote Leave revelation coming later this morning. Watch this space.

I understand that the story is with (1) lawyers and (2) the Electoral Commission. Should be up around 3pm (barring eg an injunction).

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:32

"hyperbolic bullshit about NI"
Typical of British attitudes to concern raised originally by an Irish poster, math

Brexit is relevant, because noone would be losing EU rights without it

The UK by insisting on treating those born in NI as British citizens ONLY, even if they have chosen Irish citizenship,
is trying to remove the extra rights that EU citizens would have with settled status post-Brexit
(well, at least unless / until "settled status" is repealed")

That is against the GFA, which eenables NI residents to live as British or Irish, as they choose

So Irish citizens born in NI would have fewer rights in the UK than other EU citizens

prettybird · 01/04/2019 13:32

I think May's threat promise to quit once the WA is passed has made it less likely to get through Confused

MPs, quite rightly, recognise that whoever replaces her can and will throw the PD out Shock and refuse to be bound by it Hmm

woman19 · 01/04/2019 13:33

Emily Thornberry just gave an (even more than usual for her) surrealist interview on WATO, seeming at the end to support the FOM that CM2 Boles would provide.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:35

That's intriguing, red
Let's see whether it is really a shock in current politics, or just would have been a shock in normal pre-ref politics.

I wonder too if any prominant Tories are involved - which could even affect indicative votes and the the leadership contest - or whether it is just people like Banks & Cummings

Shadycorner · 01/04/2019 13:36

Has anyone seen this article in the New Law Journal? Apparently in Sunday Times also. Why moves are afoot to prosecute the PM for misconduct in public office. Wolchover a bit of a maverick but some interesting points.

horseshit · 01/04/2019 13:36

Re: letter of Tories threatening to walk if May doesn’t go for no deal - has anyone checked how many of those who signed the letter also switched to May’s deal after she offered up her resignation in return?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 13:36

I've read several posts on MN wanting Thornberry as the leader after Corbyn goes.

She would be a dreadful choice, imo

havingtochangeusernameagain · 01/04/2019 13:38

The UK by insisting on treating those born in NI as British citizens ONLY, even if they have chosen Irish citizenship

What about if they also qualify for eg Belgian citizenship eg becase dad is from Belfast and mum from Ghent? Will they not recognise that either?

I really don't understand what the Home Office is playing at.

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 13:39

Anyone know who Huw Merriman is? Apparently he is now supporting the confirmatory vote option.

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 13:39

I can't imagine there aren't damn good grounds for a whole raft of misconduct in public office for a whole lot of them. I think it would be really good to prosecute and hand out lengthy prison sentences for this - it might make mps think twice before they tried it again.

The only thing I don't like about this charge is you can't get Cameron and Farage on it. Though maybe Cameron could face a gross negligence charge.

ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 13:40

I think that whilst the NI born but identifying entirely as Irish and not British issue existed before Brexit, it has been cemented by the Home Office’s Statement of Changes to Immigration rules which brings in the EU Settlement scheme. This defines an EEA national as someone without British Citizenship, and the UK government position is that all NI born people are automatically British Citizens by birth.

It does fly in the face of the GFA.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 13:43

Huw Merriman - Member of Parliament for Bexhill and Battle

He is saying he will back People's Vote tacked onto WA.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 13:43

and he is Conservative.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 13:44

@PippaCrerar
Hearing mutterings that Labour will back @NickBoles' Common Market 2.0 plan. Expect decision imminently. This would follow SNP support for option. Will this be enough?

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