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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
DoctorDread · 30/03/2019 01:37

I'm worried some leaver 'joker' will put a notice about article 50 being revoked on Monday and everyone getting all excited, only to find out its an April fools day stunt!

TheHumbleHawthorn · 30/03/2019 02:02

PMK
Thanks to Red et al

HazardGhost · 30/03/2019 02:17

PMK Gin ta red

phpolly · 30/03/2019 04:25

.

LonelyTiredandLow · 30/03/2019 05:10

Thanks for the new thread @Red and glad your DS is better Smile
Thought you all might be interested in the dark money ad's that FB has just published. Glaringly dog whistle and divisive.

And the latest shite from leaver FB ex work colleague showing Young People voted for Brexit too apparently. Seems to have gathered a few likes even though my first instinct was that the poor lad would have been turned into a flag had he dared venture to their march today Sad

Flowerplower · 30/03/2019 05:49

I've been sent quite a few YouGov surveys lately asking about my views on Brexit. For example I had one a few days ago asking me to rank the indicative vote options according to preference. Please could I ask those on this thread if they'd be willing to sign up for YouGov and then complete whatever Brexit surveys come your way? I ask because their sample sizes seem pretty small so if we all pile in we could maybe make a bit of a difference. For example their survey about whether people think TM's deal should go through had a sample size of around 2000 people. I received and answered this one also.

LonelyTiredandLow · 30/03/2019 05:58

I did used to do them back in 2016 but stopped when I realised every question resulted in "I LOVE BREXIT" answers only Hmm.

I might try again though as hopefully the govt is actually realising it needs it's electorate behind it.

Had a thought about the media situ and creeping realisation that the state broadcaster seems to be so keen on keeping the mob happy and dumbing down (akin to Tory party hardliners/TM) that they have lost trust meaning SKY is now hoovering up the intellectual market as they provide balanced reporting (as one lady on the march said "you know our country is in trouble when you trust Murdoch over BBC"). I think that SKY has been looking for this 'in' for some time. It's an interesting shift in my opinion. Feels uneasily like the merger of Sainsbury and ASDA though; a grab for a bigger slice of the market rather than any hugely meaningful 'revelation' on their part. Mind you if it means one arm of the dog whistle media is now tied, surely that can only be a good thing?

mathanxiety · 30/03/2019 06:15

Took me two threads to find you...

PostNotInHaste · 30/03/2019 06:19

I think Barnier’s comment that a CU agreement could be done within 48 hours was very significant and the DUP talking about staying rather than No Deal. Feel that after indicative votes on Monday there will be a move towards consensus to a CU and later in the week the WA with a CU PD will pass.

The threat of election will worry many MPs and we already saw a lot of movement on the numbers over the 3 votes so far. My MP has now said he will vote for anything to stop further delay to leaving which is a huge shift from his ‘clean, global brexit’ ie. no Deal stance which as signatory on Cash letter questioning extension of A50 he has fought for to the bitter end.

We’ve had one delay and another is feared that could be longer this time. I think the PV March and petition did change the narrative and many fear that these could if push come to shove become and option as generally no appetite for no Deal . Everyone knows May doesn’t stick to her word so saying no EP elections means sod all and with the DUP saying they would rather Remain than No deal that screws the Conservatives further potentially with their lack of majority. Will probably be wrong but I think May will get it through in the latter part of next week.

ShowerOfBrexshit · 30/03/2019 06:44

Thank you flowerpower I have just joined.
Would love to revoke / remain but if we leave surely it has to be a very soft brexit to respect the closeness of the referendum result. I'd be happy enough with a CU and SM brexit. Why oh why did the tories pursue a harder brexit?! it was never going to end well.

Random18 · 30/03/2019 06:48

Not rtft but a few pages back I saw some comments on the use of the Union Jack flag.

In my opinion that 100% was the right flag lst weekend along with thenEU flag.

Leavers, IMO have no reason to be flying that flag and pretending to be all patriotic.

The Union Jack is NOT the English flag. Their vote and if Brexit happens will ultimately lead to the break up of the UK.

So no the UNion Jack is not an appropriate flag for leavers to use.

EweSurname · 30/03/2019 06:49

Gabriel Pogrund
@Gabriel_Pogrund
Grieve told members their presence was evidence that "participatory democracy is (not) dying". They responded by laughing sarcastically and heckling. "We're here to boot you out!" said one

Runningintothesunset · 30/03/2019 06:53

I’m so sad for Dominic Grieve. He must be exhausted but I hope he can find the reserves to continue the amazing work he’s doing and fight a by-election (or a GE) as a Tigger or be a conservative candidate somewhere else. 100 crazed lunatics having so much power is terrifying

Flowerplower · 30/03/2019 07:03

Thank you ShowerofBrexshit!

I feel really bad about what's happened to Dominic Grieve too and frightened of what the Tory party membership is made up of. It's shocking how what with these people on one side and Momentum on theother the parties are being driven to greater and greater extremes.

As with most of the "good" Tories currently working in the national interest, I have mixed feelings about Grieve overall though.
www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10243/dominic_grieve/beaconsfield/divisions?policy=6673 "Dominic Grieve consistently voted against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due toillness or disability". Hopefully after what's happened he will move to the TIGs/Change but also hopefully he will rethink some of his other views against the disabled and poor.

Flowerplower · 30/03/2019 07:06

Anna Soubry as well - this is why the TIGs don't automatically have my vote:
www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24772/anna_soubry/broxtowe/votes#welfare

borntobequiet · 30/03/2019 07:09

Another email of support to Dominic Grieve, from me.

dimsum321 · 30/03/2019 07:14

pmk

Mistigri · 30/03/2019 07:20

I think Barnier’s comment that a CU agreement could be done within 48 hours was very significant and the DUP talking about staying rather than No Deal. Feel that after indicative votes on Monday there will be a move towards consensus to a CU and later in the week the WA with a CU PD will pass.

Will it pass? I think a WA with a CU would get more ERG votes against compared with yesterday. DUP might not go for it (border in Irish Sea still required).

Basically it requires Labour to whip for it.

CatsinSpace · 30/03/2019 07:27

I remember when Anna Soubry went over to TIG being asked by a journalist regarding the govt austerity measures. She said they were absolutely the right thing to do.

So be aware of what she stands for.

Peregrina · 30/03/2019 07:31

I hope that Dominic Grieve will have the courage to jump ship to the TIGers now and take a few more with him. Why on earth should he owe May any loyalty? Come an election, they will nicely split the vote, and let - well, whoever in, the Monster Raving Loony Party would do as well as any.

Peregrina · 30/03/2019 07:33

So be aware of what she stands for.

I think that goes for a lot of them, they are still Tories at the core, but not as Batshit and duplicitous as Johnson, Grease-Smug and company.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 30/03/2019 07:36

Morning all awake early for a change. I would not be surprised that DUP are contemplating whether remaining would be better after all if they have also read the tariff proposals for a no deal scenario published sbout a week ago .
Maybe the penny has finally dropped?

www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-exit-avoiding-a-hard-border-in-northern-ireland-in-a-no-deal-scenario

Mistigri · 30/03/2019 07:36

I don't agree with Anna Soubry's politics, on the whole (given that she is a lifelong Tory and I'm a lifelong opponent of the Tories).

But Labour throughout this whole process has been quite happy to envisage inflicting austerity via Brexit - people who have already lost their jobs due to this shitshow are victims of Labour enabling Tory policies just as much as victims of austerity are victims of Anna Soubry enabling Tory policies.

I have a lot of time for Anna: not for her politics, but for the way she conducts herself, her ability to make a coherent argument and stand up for something she believes in. If I had the opportunity, I might even vote for her, depending on the other candidates (if Brexit has taught us anything, it should have taught us that we need better MPs on all sides of the house, and fewer donkeys with a red or blue rosette).

PostNotInHaste · 30/03/2019 07:38

It may well not pass but I’m banking on another few days of this chaos focusing enough MP’s on feeling they need to do something to get some respite from current insanity. I’m thinking that the idea of another election with Corbyn at the helm will deeply worry some of Labour and they need time to get their House in order. Would guess that their mail boxes are full of pissed off leavers who do not want another extension under any circumstances and thinking there is the possibility enough of the ERG goimg over plus some Labour rebels.

But I’m in no way confident to break into the food stash and I’m probably way off mark on the whole thing.

ElenadeClermont · 30/03/2019 07:41

DM said that Hungarian news suggested the EU is going to have crisis meeting after crisis meeting to prepare for / mitigate the effects of no-deal.