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Brexit

Westminstenders: Indicative Crossiants

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2019 18:23

Tomorrow the Indicative debate starts at 3pm

The Speaker will choose options to go to vote.

Vote at 7pm for yes or no for each option.

7.30pm The SI debate on extension followed by vote.

Announcement of the indicative vote sometime between 8.15pm and 9.30pm

Meanwhile the DUP have indicated they would prefer a long delay (and presumably EU elections by default) rather than May's deal, in a strange twist of Brexit.

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RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 17:40

Aubrey Allegretti @breeallegretti
And given all this is supposed to get MPs to vote for the deal, will they fall in line and back it now?

"No. F*ing. Way."

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tobee · 27/03/2019 17:41

See your post at 16.19 DG

ContinuityError · 27/03/2019 17:41

So ... if the indicative votes are generally about the future direction, doesn’t May still need to get MV3 through?

Otherwise we are left with No Deal (which Parliament has rejected) or Revoke or a long extension and a new WA with different / no red lines?

Butterymuffin · 27/03/2019 17:45

May says, does she? She's said a lot of stuff.

Plus when will Brexit 'be delivered'? We could debate that all night.

It's her one millionth attempt to fudge it.

Motheroffourdragons · 27/03/2019 17:46

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67chevvyimpala · 27/03/2019 17:46

Sigh...

bellinisurge · 27/03/2019 17:47

Margaret Beckett just said they should get her promise in blood Grin

tobee · 27/03/2019 17:47

I thought she had said she was going after the first phase ages ago? Confused

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 17:48

Mujtaba Rahman @Mij_Europe
@eucopresident this morning provided interesting counterpoint to mood I picked up in Bxl—which is bleak. As I’ve written prev, most senior EU officials now have no-deal as their central scenario. Many also think cost of long extension > no-deal. #Brexit thread
twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1110869901701459968

Most straightforward scenario for both sides would be deal over MV3 and an orderly withdrawal on 22 May. But Bxl thinks this least likely outcome. We are raising possibility of MV3 passing from 15% to 20%—but it’s certainly not basecase 1/

If MV3 doesn’t pass and outcome of indicative votes is uncertain, UK participation in European elex is absolute pre-condition for any EU flexibility 2/

If UK doesn't participate in EP elex (not our basecase) 22 May is unlikely to be date of no-deal exit—as leaders want to avoid no-deal on eve of EU elex. Realistic window is 12 April to 22 May—with “preference to front load”. Would fall on Fri eve/weekend to avoid market rout 3/

Why is EU sceptical MV3 will pass? DUP and ERG are engaged in a game of chicken. DUP only wants to signal support for May’s deal if they’re sure it’ll pass—which depends on Tory Eurosceptics. Eurosceptics want DUP to move publicly first before they switch sides 4/

Corbyn also asking for the unachievable. Corbyn’s problem not the Withdrawal Agreement, but a “blind Brexit”. But Labour not pushing EU to give legal weight to the Political Declaration—understand it’s not possible and that current deal/PD don’t exclude softer Brexit 5/

Labour wants domestic legislation to tie hands of future Government/Parliament to implement softer Brexit/what is ultimately specified in PD. Impossible to achieve—perhaps, like Labour’s six tests? Gives Corbyn pretext to keep opposing deal AND outcome of indicative votes 6/

With no MV3, no clarity on outcome of indicative votes, will EU offer long extension? Many, many EU officials now believe costs of LT extension now exceed those of no-deal because... 7/

1) MFF requires sign-off in Commons. Doable? 2) What about UK negotiating FTAs while being a MS? 3) There’s concern UK will continue to “leverage” Brexit, impairing EU’s ability to act eg UK's veto of ESA Budget as Govt didn’t agree with EU stance on Galileo 8/

Senior UK officials counter these points with good arguments. But important point is that attitudes in Bxl and EU are hardening on cost-benefit balance of a long extension for the EU 9/

EU officials also want to limit economic cost and uncertainty for EU businesses—as in a LT extension, UK could decide to leave or stay at any moment 10/

If a political process were to emerge—we think risk of a Tory leadership election and early general election are both rising—it would be highly unlikely that the EU would deny a longer extension 11/

But EU equally concerned about LT extension that leaves EU in same or worse situation. This is highly likely, if leadership election and general election throw up a more Eurosceptic PM, who promises to negotiate a better WA and ditch backstop—which are of course, unachievable 12/

And EU is clear, as @pmdfoster notes, that during the extension, nothing will happen on Brexit—the WA won’t be renegotiated, and no discussions on future relationship possible until UK is full third country. So possibility of "standing still" despite political change is real 13/

Best summary, perhaps, is senior EU official to me: “One of our objectives for #EUCO was to have leaders exclude the possibility of serial extensions. We were partly successful. Leader’s didn’t exclude another extension, but they recognised that extensions come with a cost 14/

Alas, debate on EU side on LT extension is also complex, and far from straightforward ENDS

Key points from above
a) Cost of no deal to the EU is arguably LESS than a long extension for the UK. This is significant
b) DUP and ERG both looking to climb down and support the WA. Neither wants to be first as they both think it makes them look weak. And Labour Leavers won't support the WA because they want both the ERG and the DUP to go first.

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TheMostBoringPersonEver · 27/03/2019 17:48

Chuka doing a great speech about the future generations

bellinisurge · 27/03/2019 17:48

@Motheroffourdragons , the WA is not a deal. She wants to get WA through so they can start working on a deal, whatever that is.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 17:48

Surely any new PM would want to pursue their own version of Brexit, rather than May's vision?

EXACTLY.

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RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 17:49

Carl Dinnen @carldinnen
The Chancellor leaves the 1922 saying the Prime Minister’s offer is “sad, but I hope it’s going to work”

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woman19 · 27/03/2019 17:50

Surely any new PM would want to pursue their own version of Brexit, rather than May's vision
grand wizard brexit.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 17:51

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
No 10 source: process to elect new leader would begin after leaving EU [NB that would be May 22 if MV passed]

Well May just got a good reason to extend beyond EP elections!!!

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ContinuityError · 27/03/2019 17:51

Odds on MV3 passing have dropped from 46% to 38% this afternoon (from BIL who is a betting man).

Motheroffourdragons · 27/03/2019 17:52

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Motheroffourdragons · 27/03/2019 17:53

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LonelyTiredandLow · 27/03/2019 17:54

But then if the subsequent PM reneges on Worker Rights etc it won't be anything to do with her! I'm sure she will write a book about how she was Mother Theresa throughout the process and never intended XYZ consequences that occurred once she stepped down Hmm

woman19 · 27/03/2019 17:54

Stephen Bush@stephenkb
Replying to @IanDunt
Look, what evidence do you have, other than her entire career, that she might go back on something she has only vaguely hinted at doing?

I think the wizards might be ahead of you there, Stephen

tobee · 27/03/2019 17:54

Anyone having a "we're still in just about " celebration on Friday? 🥳 🍾 Even it's just to piss off the leavers who have had to cancel their parties? 😆

Sostenueto · 27/03/2019 17:55

I have been quiet as I indulge myself in the spoils of winning the war over Berkow!Wink

mrslaughan · 27/03/2019 17:55

Ok - question re;Lisbon treaty. Had lunch with friend, who voted remain, but said she would vote leave because of the Lisbon treaty. Now I know we covered this ages ago - but she wasn't saying it was about currency, but a whole lot of other changes that would be bad for the UK. I said I thought those claims had been discredited - and I know we discussed it and there were some articles that were referenced here.
Where can I read about anything that it effects/changes it is bringing in..... or that will debunk this claim.

LonelyTiredandLow · 27/03/2019 17:56

according to the constitution of each country - yes I recognise that is a requisite, but considering we were apparently a democracy and how this has played out, I'd be suggesting at the very least every country looks at their constitution to check what they have in place.

DGRossetti · 27/03/2019 17:56

May can say whatever she wants. Currently there is no way to hold her to it. So it's meaningless.