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Brexit

Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2019 12:57

We need Time!
Its the one thing we don't have.

Todays vote is on extending a50.

To the displeasure of leavers, Bercow has selected amendments:

e) Corbyn Amendment
demands the government should “provide parliamentary time for this house to find a majority for a different approach”.

h) Wollaston Amendment
cross party amendment requesting to extend to allow the ability to legislate for a PV

i) Benn Amendment
cross party backbenchers take over parliamentary time from 20th March to find a majority way forward which gives justification for an extension

j) Bryant Amendment
prevents meaningful vote III

After yesterday's vote, May is left with effectively four options:

1) Pass the WA and go for a short technical extension.
An extension would have numbers in the HoC, but passing the WA is a struggle and it's reliant on the EU granting extension which is probably viable in this circumstances.

2) Be defeated getting the WA through and be forced into asking for a long extension as a result. This would include EP elections.
This option is politically toxic to the tories and its unlikely a long extension would pass the HoC. The EU would still need a justification for a long extension - a PV would be the natural option - but not clear if that could pass the HoC. Ditto passing legislation for EP elections. Whole scenario is unlikely

3) Be forced to revoke
Tory party big red button of self destruct

4) Actively decide to pursue an illegal no deal Brexit
Let's not think of the ramification

Going through this at speed, my initial reactions to this are:

If e) passes it doesn't really make much difference to May's choices here, but Labour might have more say.

If h) passes it might make 2) more likely

If i) passes it might open up alternative options

If j) passes we might have a real issue if its the only amendment that passes - it would leave a straight choice of Revoke or No Deal UNLESS i) passes as well.

But there might be other things that are not hitting me right in the face now.

As it stands, Hard Line Brexiteers were earlier today making noises that they would now support the WA - including whispers that this would include the DUP who would be likely to set off a chain reaction of support.

However which (if any) amendments pass today could well affect whether thats even a possibility.

As a result this vote needs to carry the health warning 'Be Careful what you wish for'. What you would LIKE might be extremely high risk and might jeapordise the main vote and the chances of an extension at all.

So whilst Leavers might be unhappy about the choices, it might well ultimately work best for No Dealers. Or it could be a gift for Remainers. Bercow's selections are not necessarily biased for this reason. He does not know the outcome here. If anything it looks like he's actually trying to put more options on the table for the house, rather than allow May to dictate to the house. Which is exactly what he should be doing. He's given parliament the power.

I suspect we will not fully understand what is going on tonight EVEN MORE than last night. And it will take a short while for everyone to calibrate what the eventual result actually is going to mean.

THIS is the most important vote yet. And it has the potential its going to end up m-e-s-s-y.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
icannotremember · 15/03/2019 15:13

The UK's internal politics is not considered by the 'outside'

Lucky them, I wish we didn't have to care about the UK's internal politics

Emilyontmoor · 15/03/2019 15:13

Louise Collins I have been and am very happy to get into debate but in this instance I have simply stopped bothering to point up the facts because you have done so before and they still come out with "they need us more than we need them" "we can give the quotas back to our fishermen" "Germany will soon give in because they don't want to lose the market for their cars" (because Germany is calling all the shots apparently ) "we can put up / remove (depending on sector) tariffs to protect our farmers / car industry / fishermen" "We can rebuild up our manufacturing" "they need us more than we need them" "We should walk away like Trump did" "The prisons are full of Muslims and East Europeans" 'That silly muslim girl went home, she should stay there" "So we won't have champagne if there is no deal, when I was young you ate what was in season, we can go back to that" and to every counter argument about the economic / political impact "it'll be fine" "it was fine before we were in the EU and it will be again".... that is before we get on to the spluttering intense hatred of Junker that I suspect has roots in their feelings about Hitler.....

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 15/03/2019 15:19

Songs that’s horrible, I’m appalled that it happened, and that no one spoke up for your friend.

I have always wondered how societies went from liberal to extremes but it seems to be a slow build up of unacceptable behaviour and hatred of the 'other

Littlespaces I forget in which book but there’s a Hemingway character who describes how he went bankrupt:

Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 15:20

When I was little, our section of road - about 100 houses our of 400 - did not have a Silver Jubilee street party. The reason given was "too many Indians live there" by the conservative councillor who lived 2 doors down. Obviously he didn't miss out, as he fucked off to the town hall celebrations.

TalkinPaece · 15/03/2019 15:26

UK election season has started
www.southampton.gov.uk/Images/Declaration%20of%20Result_tcm63-406454.pdf

LouiseCollins28 · 15/03/2019 15:36

Fair enough Emily, can't really argue with the point that the emotional underpins most of the examples you cited, and that most of them are clearly ill thought out.

Emilyontmoor · 15/03/2019 15:51

sos I just checked the latest GCSE History syllabus and it still requires analysis and in particular evaluation of sources, much more so at A level. GCSE level is always going to be knowledge heavy but at least now it does have to be in some sort of framework of analysis and evaluation, and not just regurgitation as it used to be. No time for Gove making it all riding on one set of exams, but even he couldn't completely do away with advances in teaching methods.....www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/history/gcse/history-8145/scheme-of-assessment

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2019 15:53

In a BBC interview Esther McVey has hinted she might back May's deal.

We are slowly moving towards May's Deal.

OP posts:
TheNumberfaker · 15/03/2019 15:54

I meant if Parliament said revoke and May refused...

missclimpson · 15/03/2019 15:57

I agree about critical analysis in GCSE history Emily. DGD can do an analysis of the Cold War that would have been A level stuff in my day. I think the syllabus is challenging and about far more than just acquiring content.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 15/03/2019 15:59

I'm not sure if this "means" anything but today I went to our tip shortly after the school drop off. As I got there I saw about 10 cars ahead of me all stopped, some with engines off. I turned my engine off and listened to the radio. After about 15mins I began thinking perhaps I should try to turn around to go/maybe there had been an accident/was it closed and it dawned on me no one in front seemed to know...why? Because they didn't ask. So I got out walked to the tip and found a single guy smoking a fag. He said he needed just 5 minutes as they were taking away a crate (no lorry or sign of moving crate, just him alone). As I walked back everyone wound down their windows and asked - none of them had a clue what we were waiting for an all said "well done!" for asking Confused. I got back and called my leave friend who reacted with complete incredulity - "OMG I would NEVER have gone up there, or got out of my car!" - What the hell is this all about?

TalkinPaece · 15/03/2019 16:07

RTB
We are slowly moving towards May's Deal.
cutting it sodding fine Hmm

Loletta · 15/03/2019 16:07

Grant Shapps on an interview on BBC 3 Counties Radio this morning also said that he might hold his nose and vote for TM's deal

prettybird · 15/03/2019 16:09

Going back to the diary records from the 30s, my mum's Australian parents toured Europe in 1936/37/38 as newly weds and my grandmother wrote a diary. Whatever her later flaws (she was a toxic parent to my mum who was born in 1940 and my parents ended up practically non-contact with them relatively easy as we were in Scotland and they were in South Africa Wink), the bits of the diary I've read showed an astute perception of the prejudices that were beginning to manifest, particularly in Germany - and how uncomfortable it made them both feel Sad

With the benefit of WW2 hindsight and knowledge of the Holocaust, the evidence was already there that "acceptable" behaviour and parameters had already changed unacceptably Sad

One wonders if people will read threads like these in the same way that diaries from the 30s are read, as providing evidence of an oncoming storm, of a chaotic (at best), devastating (at worst) future. Sad

Peregrina · 15/03/2019 16:10

I think that is just a regular by election . The election season will open in earnest on 26th March by which time the notifications for election have to have been issued. This will be for those councils and districts having elections, which isn't all.

At the moment the various political parties are running around collecting signatures for their candidates.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 16:10

She's backed them into a corner and essentially bullied them into agreeing the WA because they don't trust her not to let us crash out. Absolutely abysmal on her behalf, quite frankly.

TatianaLarina · 15/03/2019 16:11

It’s always been on the cards that the ERG would realise it’s May’s Deal or no Brexit, but it’s taking a very long time to sink in.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 16:14

It’s always been on the cards that the ERG would realise it’s May’s Deal or no Brexit, but it’s taking a very long time to sink in.

At least Mays deal gives us a breather from US vultures.

Also, given the shitshow so far, who'd bet on the UK being out of the EU by 2022 ?

DavidDavidDavid · 15/03/2019 16:15

I have to keep reminding myself that even if we get a WA and we leave, we then have another year(?) of negotiations on the post-transition relationship, and presumably that will need to get through parliament too. So we'll have to go through all this again. Shock

Peregrina · 15/03/2019 16:17

prettybird and others:

I recommend as I have done before on these threads:
Travellers in the Third Reich

The signs were there for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. I believe it's too easy to say that education will save us, because the Germans were a cultured, well educated nation, with I believe higher literacy rates than either France or the UK.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 16:18

if we get a WA and we leave, we then have another year(?) of negotiations on the post-transition relationship

Make it 10.

TatianaLarina · 15/03/2019 16:18

She’s bullied the moderates into backing her deal for fear of No Deal, and the headbangers for fear of No Brexit. And running down the clock so there is no other option.

This was always her plan. And this is not democracy.

She’s bullying the country into a Brexit they no longer want.

She will resign after getting the WA through having ‘delivered’ Brexit and we’ll get Raab or Hunt or Gove spending two years trying to get out of it and arguing with the EU over a deal they don’t believe in.

It’s such a shame because the democratic solution within everyone’s grasp is a long extension and a regroup.

bellinisurge · 15/03/2019 16:19

@Peregrina , I've read that book. It's jaw dropping. And I thought I knew a lot of social history of that era.

prettybird · 15/03/2019 16:19

The message has been for long enough that "Negotiations with the EU always go up to the wire; this is normal" , with the subtext that the EU will blink before the UK. Hmm

I don't think that what they meant was that May would be forcing her own parliament to blink Confused

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 16:22

I'm not sure the trade deals need voting on. But I have to admit that I've not found the time to read the WA to know how it works or the mechanism for extending the transition period (bearing in mind there's absolutely no way we will get it done in the currently-allotted time period).