Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2019 12:57

We need Time!
Its the one thing we don't have.

Todays vote is on extending a50.

To the displeasure of leavers, Bercow has selected amendments:

e) Corbyn Amendment
demands the government should “provide parliamentary time for this house to find a majority for a different approach”.

h) Wollaston Amendment
cross party amendment requesting to extend to allow the ability to legislate for a PV

i) Benn Amendment
cross party backbenchers take over parliamentary time from 20th March to find a majority way forward which gives justification for an extension

j) Bryant Amendment
prevents meaningful vote III

After yesterday's vote, May is left with effectively four options:

1) Pass the WA and go for a short technical extension.
An extension would have numbers in the HoC, but passing the WA is a struggle and it's reliant on the EU granting extension which is probably viable in this circumstances.

2) Be defeated getting the WA through and be forced into asking for a long extension as a result. This would include EP elections.
This option is politically toxic to the tories and its unlikely a long extension would pass the HoC. The EU would still need a justification for a long extension - a PV would be the natural option - but not clear if that could pass the HoC. Ditto passing legislation for EP elections. Whole scenario is unlikely

3) Be forced to revoke
Tory party big red button of self destruct

4) Actively decide to pursue an illegal no deal Brexit
Let's not think of the ramification

Going through this at speed, my initial reactions to this are:

If e) passes it doesn't really make much difference to May's choices here, but Labour might have more say.

If h) passes it might make 2) more likely

If i) passes it might open up alternative options

If j) passes we might have a real issue if its the only amendment that passes - it would leave a straight choice of Revoke or No Deal UNLESS i) passes as well.

But there might be other things that are not hitting me right in the face now.

As it stands, Hard Line Brexiteers were earlier today making noises that they would now support the WA - including whispers that this would include the DUP who would be likely to set off a chain reaction of support.

However which (if any) amendments pass today could well affect whether thats even a possibility.

As a result this vote needs to carry the health warning 'Be Careful what you wish for'. What you would LIKE might be extremely high risk and might jeapordise the main vote and the chances of an extension at all.

So whilst Leavers might be unhappy about the choices, it might well ultimately work best for No Dealers. Or it could be a gift for Remainers. Bercow's selections are not necessarily biased for this reason. He does not know the outcome here. If anything it looks like he's actually trying to put more options on the table for the house, rather than allow May to dictate to the house. Which is exactly what he should be doing. He's given parliament the power.

I suspect we will not fully understand what is going on tonight EVEN MORE than last night. And it will take a short while for everyone to calibrate what the eventual result actually is going to mean.

THIS is the most important vote yet. And it has the potential its going to end up m-e-s-s-y.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
RedToothBrush · 15/03/2019 13:50

Most propaganda is an appeal to emotional triggers to provoke a certain kind of response.

The sheer amount of propaganda which is at an unprecedented level since WWII is the issue.

Propaganda typically appears when fractures have already appeared in society. It is a symptom of an underlying social problem.

Thus if we have a problem with emotional politics dominating and critical thinking have weak resonance there is a reason which is rational, but isn't expressed in that manner.

OP posts:
TalkinPaece · 15/03/2019 14:00

I was just fact checking one of my own posts on another thread .....

In 2015 in Belfast South, more than 3/4 of votes cast were NOT for the winner
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_South_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
And then folks wonder why UK politics is broken.

ElenadeClermont · 15/03/2019 14:03

The DUP will not side with May again until the cheque clears. They still have not been given all their previous £1bn bung.

Re: the Serbian connection. Churchill said that "The Balkans produce more history than they can consume."

On a positive note, one of Farage's potential saviours, Hungarian PM Orban, has started his penitence towards the EU.
Unlike Cameron, he understands that important decisions are made within the EPP. If you are not at their table, you have no influence. Orban is not truly sorry, but he is going to the line on a minor issue (for him) like Brexit.

ElenadeClermont · 15/03/2019 14:04

Toe the line

HesterThrale · 15/03/2019 14:05

If the MV passes on 3rd or 4th attempt, what do we think of the MPs who rejected it once or twice, then accepted it, even though the terms are exactly the same. Lily-livered, self-serving or ultimately sensible?

And would it have to get through the Lords? Can’t imagine that’d be smooth...

However, personally I still don’t think it’ll pass next week.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 14:23

Are we back to a unilateral interpretation which would be laughed out of Fame Academy?

Yep. FFS, I tell clients day in day out that you can't just decide a document does or doesn't say what you want it to in order that your PoV is supported. As a lawyer he should fucking know better. Lawyers like that give the rest of us a bad name. It's shoddy practice.

NoWordForFluffy · 15/03/2019 14:26

To be honest, as you can't trust May not to crash out, regardless of the HoC overwhelmingly telling her that they don't want no deal, I think at this stage backing it is the sensible option so we don't commit economic suicide. As much as it pains me to say that.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 14:29

Personally I object to all freebie newspapers

I was doing my sandwich year 1986-1987 in the midst of the evening paper wars ... Standard versus the (Maxwell-resurrected) London Daily news ... eventually they were all given away free.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 14:29

{If the MV passes on 3rd or 4th attempt, what do we think of the MPs who rejected it once or twice, then accepted it, even though the terms are exactly the same. Lily-livered, self-serving or ultimately sensible?}

I have great doubts that many of them will have actually read and understood the WA document. They certainly hadn't when they rejected it first time around. It is vaguely possible that more of them have had a glance through now. Of course it is a work in progress, 3 elements are set (Citizens rights, the arrangements for the border on Ireland and the original projected departure bill (costs)). the rest is a proposed path for leaving, but could be open to renegotiation AFTER it is signed. Of course the HoC don't like it as there is no guaranteed cake, and it involves a lot of work in further negotiations, along with the PD.
Sadly they don't seem to have twigged that even leaving with 'no deal' still requires a year or more of negotiation, during which all hell will probably break loose.

Songsofexperience · 15/03/2019 14:31

Sorry for the quick derail but I have to vent about the alarming levels of xenophobia at the moment and the fact it seems to me increasingly accepted- like bad weather. Hatred is spreading like wildfire... obviously starting with what happened to those poor poor people in NZ. That is despicable! I'm so appalled that yet another massacre has stained this earth.
But I also mean low level everyday nastiness which is now more or less constant- like being insulted or told to go home for speaking a different language in a public place. Just yesterday a friend of mine was queuing with her daughter in a supermarket. She was speaking in her native language when another woman barged in front of them quite rudely. My friend told her to wait in line, to which she answered 'Just go home you c...' No one batted an eyelid.
Things have changed for the worse. The little things are not comparable to the full blown horrors of course but I think if we accept the everyday nastiness, let it go unchallenged, there is no telling where we'll end up...

TheNumberfaker · 15/03/2019 14:32

I’m just wondering what would count as a valid revocation? After seeing Portillo on This Week last night saying he thought Parliament would go for a last minute revoke than crash out.
Would vote by HoC plus letter from any Minister do it?
I’m not pinning my hopes on it, just made me think.

DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 14:32

Interserve going under ....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47582406

Littlespaces · 15/03/2019 14:42

Songs That is awful.

I have always wondered how societies went from liberal to extremes but it seems to be a slow build up of unacceptable behaviour and hatred of the 'other'. There are diary accounts of people who noticed tiny horrible acts just like this in the 1930's.

ElenadeClermont · 15/03/2019 14:45

DGR Even more jobs lot. Angry and Sad

ElenadeClermont · 15/03/2019 14:46

Lost.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 14:48

{I’m just wondering what would count as a valid revocation?}
The Uk Prime Minister doesn't need a particular reason to revoke.
She (meaning this afternoon, it might change!) could turn up in Brussels tonight with a slip of paper saying the UK would like to stay.
I suspect there may be a lot of strange noises like Muttley* coming from all the European heads of state and EP, but I think that is about it.

  • Dick Dastardly's sidekick.
DGRossetti · 15/03/2019 14:56

So, following Carillion, the government set up some sort of slush fund/pork barrel to ensure it's other "partners" have to step up and fill the gap if one were to go under.

Surely that means those left standing remaining will be under more pressure ... leading to a greater risk of them failing ?

I leave others to speculate on the issues that might arise from the UK government effectively trashing a US companies shareholding ....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47575123

However, the government - which put Interserve under intense supervision 18 months ago - insists that if the rescue deal is not approved and the company does go bust, there is a plan to bring the company out of administration over this weekend.

This arrangement will see the lenders take control of the company, essential services will not be interrupted, but current shareholders will see their shares rendered worthless.

That includes the company's biggest shareholder, US firm Coltrane Asset Management, which has opposed the deal but is thought to be interested in buying pieces of the company after administration.

(contd)

icannotremember · 15/03/2019 15:01

I’m just wondering what would count as a valid revocation

As I understand it Leclerc is absolutely right and all that needs to happen is TM handing in a note saying we're revoking. I have read others saying no, you'd need an Act of Parliament, though.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 15:03

{US firm Coltrane Asset Management,}
Fox's mates by any chance?

TalkinPaece · 15/03/2019 15:03

re Interserve - nice to see the speculators - particularly the Trump supporting hedge fund
taking a 95% bath
and the employees being protected for now

lonelyplanetmum · 15/03/2019 15:05

There has been some hints on this thread too. Someone bring rude about Jacinda Arden speaking rhetoric.

She has handled a horrific murder of 40 of her country's innocent people -mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons , daughters all affected. She has spoken with dignity statesmanship and compassion and someone here has made a dig at her. This is beyond unacceptable.

Every little comment about her words 'being rhetoric' or similar comments on other forums about people like Farage having a point, contributes even in a small way to an environment where things like this breed.

1tisILeClerc · 15/03/2019 15:06

icannotremember
I was taking it at the International level.
The UK's internal politics is not considered by the 'outside'.

lonelyplanetmum · 15/03/2019 15:06

Sorry that was agreeing with Songs post.

ElenadeClermont · 15/03/2019 15:09

That NZ shooter must be really into history. Some of the names on the weapons are Hungarian military commanders who fought Ottoman / Turkish forces.

dreichuplands · 15/03/2019 15:10

songs you aren't wrong. We were on holiday in Florida during half term and my ds started speaking in Spanish to our waiter (we lived in Latin America for a bit) the waiter replied and we switched to Spanish ( we need all the practice we can get).
DH and I both noticed an older couple across the way glaring at us, they didn't say anything but they were some distance and their response was palpable.
Initially I wondered if I had just imagined it but DH asked if I had noticed it. We have lived or visited the US a lot over the last six years and this is the first time this has happened. Intolerance of difference seems to be growing along with comfort at making it known.