Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/03/2019 12:53

I'm behind the times clearly.

Butterymuffin · 13/03/2019 12:53

Just saw that on Twitter myself and it is chilling.

Whisky2014 · 13/03/2019 12:58

I dont understand how that means it would be without a deal?

EweSurname · 13/03/2019 12:58

So is revoking the only possible option to avoid a no deal (not politically but legally)?

FiddleFaddleDingDong · 13/03/2019 13:00

Revoking seems more and more like the democratic thing to do. The brexiters have said no to the Brexit on offer twice now. I agree with whoever it was yesterday who said the ERG et al only know how to carp and moan. They wouldn't have a clue what to do if they actually got what they want.

EweSurname · 13/03/2019 13:03

I thought the ERG are propelled by the prospect of making lots of money in a post no-deal Brexit? If that's their ultimate aim, it makes sense that May's deal isn't what they want

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 13:04

Not really sure why Aaron Banks felt the need to go to Italy to get support against an A50 extension ? There looks to be a queue of countries that are against it already.

1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 13:09

Millyonthe
You are of course very welcome to join in on Westminsterenders.
If you can put discussions forward that show how leaving might be really good for the UK then it would be welcomed.
I, and others hold a view that the UK should now leave although I originally voted Remain. Circumstances have changed and the air is poisoned. I do not wish to see either EU or UK 'damaged' by separation and as such the WA and swift decisive negotiations are the 'best' route to achieving this moving forward from where we are now.
I feel that the UK will really struggle medium and even long term as from day 1 unless a negotiation for a CU and SM are sorted out, much of the industry in the UK will be badly hit and there has been no government over the last few decades who have really facilitated new and beneficial industry, apart from Finance which employs relatively few but relies on being part of the EU and the wider world.
This is the cross that 'separatism' will have to bear.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 13/03/2019 13:09

Isn't Salvini in a coalition as minority?

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 13:11

whisky The only deal on offer is the WA - the EU have said repeatedly there are no more negotiations

Since the HoC refused to pass the WA, then the options are No Deal or Revoke ... or reconsider & pass the WA

May could request an extension - but it might be refused,
or the HoC might still not have chosen anything at th end of the extension period.

In either case, it is No Deal unless the HoC choose revoke or the WA.

If the HoC voted for the SIngle Market, the EU might grant a longer extension,
but they would insist that SM negotiations are only possible if the Uk fully accepts the 4 pillars, including FOM and ECJ.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 13/03/2019 13:13

Free sanitary products from next year for secondary schools! That was unexpected from Hammond.

1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 13:15

{I thought the ERG are propelled by the prospect of making lots of money in a post no-deal Brexit}
They are the 'Arthur Daly' of the just about legal finance world. Happy to throw spanners into works to keep themselves amused and ratcheting money into their own pockets. No doubt they have 'friends' who will be more shady and are pushing the schemes harder, probably with a bit of 'far right muscle'.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 13:15

lonelyandtired The question is whether the other Italian party would risk offending their coalition partner,
just to stand up for the UK's right to extra dithering time

The UK has long ago worn out the patience of its friends, so even without the Italian Plot, an extension is by no means a done deal

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 13:18

May could request an extension - but it might be refused,

Will be, unless the UK attaches a serious plan with the requestion demonstrating it isn't going to piss it away.

Basically the issue of requesting an extension is that the T&Cs required to get it will provoke even more grumbling from the ERG-types about "being dictated" to by Brussels. If one was to be requested it should have been before now.

One thing I've just wondered about any extension is (if granted) whether it would allow the UK to crash out before it ends ? I really can't see that being the case, so the UK could end up "trapped" in the extension (having to conduct EP elections) "against it's will" ....

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 13:20

Mehreen@MehreenKhn

One thing EU ambassadors all agreed on:

there is no way the UK will be able to implement its tariff schedule on time for an no deal.

Leading to general exasperation that the Brits haven't done their homework

< maybe why the desperate idea of an honesty box ? >

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2019 13:23

DG The UK could have left before 2 years are up
2 years is the maximum time, not a requirement

So, I expect the Uk could choose to leave partway through an extension, if it actually wanted to do so
because again the extension would be a maximum time

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 13:24

I wonder if Banks went in a Mini ....

NoWordForFluffy · 13/03/2019 13:27

Do we know what amendments are being voted on tonight yet (is it tonight)?

Millyonthe · 13/03/2019 13:33

LeClerc I'm grateful for your kind words.
I've often posted why I think the UK would be better off outside the EU but my opinions are responded to with scorn and fury here so it's a waste of my time and everybody else's really. I'm not whinging by the way, these threads are for Remainers and that's just the way it is!
Most of my fears about staying in the EU are explained by Larry Elliott here if you're interested:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/17/rupture-eu-brexit-reform
I really do think Brexit is over for now though. There is not a a majority for it in the House of Commons so that's it.

icannotremember · 13/03/2019 13:37

I really do think Brexit is over for now though. There is not a a majority for it in the House of Commons so that's it.

Do you think there's a majority in the HoC for revoke/ people's vote/ seek lengthy extension which keeps us in for another couple of years whilst we negotiate a much softer Brexit? Brexit can't be over if we stay as we are, with the default that we crash out on the 29th with no deal in place. I don't know that enough MPs would vote the way they would need to in order to actually stop that happening.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 13:40

I'm not whinging by the way, these threads are for Remainers and that's just the way it is!

Are they ? It doesn't say anywhere in the rules Grin. Leavers have always been free to start and post in any thread they like. And Leavers who had good points to make have (as far as I can tell) been engaged with respect.

The only reason these threads may seem sole for Remainers is simply the low quality (if at all) of "debate" from self-professed "leavers".

I don't think I have seen a single Remainer claim the EU was perfect - in fact far from it. But it's preferable to going it alone, and while we were arguably the most influential member as we struck a balance between the Franco-German axis and "others" we had a pretty good shot at getting things our way. The Single Market, for example.

Whatever happens, it's Leavers that did think and did their homework that have been worst betrayed. You won ! Where's your prize ?

FishesaPlenty · 13/03/2019 13:40

I'm interested in the consequences of throwing a successful vote of no confidence into the mix at some stage this week.

I noticed when these votes were timetabled that it's exactly 14 days from the end of this week until the 29th, which I believe may be significant with the potential for a successful VoNC?

Is a temporary cross-party coalition (in a grown-up, Tigger-like way) without an election possible under a no confidence situation? It would be a wonderful way of scattering any 'blame' - which seems to be most politicians' priority.

What would be the more likely scenarios, and outcomes?

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/03/2019 13:41

I really do think Brexit is over for now though. There is not a a majority for it in the House of Commons so that's it

I hope you are right but I doubt it somewhat. Isn’t no deal the default?

Argh we’re fucked.

TalkinPaece · 13/03/2019 13:41

Interesting milly
I think the chance of a no deal Brexit is now higher than at any time since the vote
and sadly the last couple of years has allowed the rest of Europe to lose focus on the changes that need to be made within the EU
and has allowed the UK government to utterly ignore the domestic issues that drove the vote

its a lose : lose in my book

FiddleFaddleDingDong · 13/03/2019 13:41

Leave.EU
Verified account
@LeaveEUOfficial
The British establishment would do well to remember the Eurosceptic scene is a close-knit group across the continent and on the rise - some are now in power!
If our politicians betray Brexit and vote for delay, @MatteoSalviniMI can defend the 17.4 million and veto!

Patrick Wintour
@patrickwintour
Follow Follow @patrickwintour
More Patrick Wintour Retweeted Leave.EU
Number of Tory MPs went to see members of Polish governing party last week in Warsaw - broadly on same errand, namely to block Article 50 extension.