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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

OP posts:
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Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 10:04

Bollocks. The EU said nothing about the triggering of A50.

Sorry DGR but they did mention the EP elections as being an issue/ deadline, right from the start.
I am not a brexiter or blaming the EU by saying that, just that it's been taken into account from the start, that's all, because it IS an issue.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 13/03/2019 10:06

Link for Lonelyplanet and anyone else who would like to vote

www.facebook.com/CharlieElphickeMP/

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 10:06

Now the pressure mounts ... parliament is now pretty much out of the fight here.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-vote-article-50-michel-barnier-eu-theresa-may-speech-a8820501.html

Michel Barnier has questioned whether and why the EU would grant Britain an extension to Article 50, ahead of a vote by MPs on moving back the date of Brexit.

Speaking in the European Parliament the EU’s chief negotiator reiterated that negotiations were over.

“Why would we extend these discussions? The discussion on Article 50, that is done and dusted. We have the withdrawal agreement, it is there. That is the question asked and we are waiting for the answer to that,” he told MEPs.

Mr Barnier added that before the EU could make a decision on a further extension the UK would have to come up with a plan to build a “a constructive majority” in its own parliament.

(contd)

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 13/03/2019 10:07

Didn’t realise things had moved in so much! That was a link for the leave/Remain poll mentioned upthread.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 10:09

Sorry DGR but they did mention the EP elections as being an issue/ deadline, right from the start.

Who triggered A50 ? The EU, by reaching into Westminster when no one was looking, dressed as Theresa May (Barnier standing on Junckers shoulders in a trenchcoat) ?????

Or was it the UK PM - against a massive chorus of disapproval ???

Any suggestion that the EU is responsible for the date the UK chose to trigger A50 is a complete load of bollocky bollocks, and as an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 10:13

{Sorry DGR but they did mention the EP elections as being an issue/ deadline, right from the start.}

Since with anything to do with Brexit you can happily argue that black is white (and flounce if others don't believe you) but triggering A50 so that it would fall within a couple of months of EP elections was probably factored in to increase the state of 'panic' if departure wasn't going smoothly. This whole thing since day 1 has been about divide and rule and spreading so many differing stories, many of which are half truths just to 'confuse' even those that are trying to follow so they begin to doubt their own thoughts.
A bit like seeing a bit of lipstick on your partners cuff, just a hint of suspicion to gnaw away at you.

SusanWalker · 13/03/2019 10:13

The lexiter on my Facebook just shared a petition to prorogue parliament. Jesus wept.

jasjas1973 · 13/03/2019 10:19

Thinking that May considered the EP elections as part of her calculations, is giving her slightly more credit than she deserves.

It just wasn't factored in by either side or A50 would state that it must be triggered within a certain time frame to avoid having elections and then leaving.

I suspect the EU are perfectly capable of altering the rules on representation, if a longer extension is required.

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 10:20

I'm not for a second suggesting that it wasn't the sole responsibility of the UK to trigger A50!! I am only saying the the EP elections are a known additional constraint that is a headache for the EU (and yes, I think it shouldn't have been a reason for TM to rush into triggering the bloody article without a plan).

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 10:20

Since with anything to do with Brexit you can happily argue that black is white (and flounce if others don't believe you) but triggering A50 so that it would fall within a couple of months of EP elections was probably factored in to increase the state of 'panic' if departure wasn't going smoothly.

Yes, but that was all in the UKs control. The EU did not comment one way or the other about whether they preferred an early triggering. If Brexiteers felt they needed to rush to trigger (why ??????) then it's on them.

Ultimately the failure of Brexit can take many forms - arguably revoke and no-deal being different sides of the same coin. But the single biggest reason will be the unseemly rush of Brexiteers to cash in their dodgy cheque of the referendum result. Only that cheque is now in clearing, and every passing day getting more and more scrutiny.

Ultimately the Brexiteers biggest "idea" was to try and leave the UK with a shit car while they cashed the bankers draft they insisted on.

Hopefully that's been thwarted at least.

I still stand by my thinking that ultimately the UKs membership or not of the EU is in no way as important to malign agencies as the absolute paralysis and chaos we find ourselves in today is. Betting on a journey is much more profitable than guessing a destination ....

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 10:27

Meanwhile ..

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/brexit-sturgeon-uses-vote-defeat-to-justify-scottish-independence-push-1-4888307

Nicola Sturgeon has declared Theresa May should ‘hang her head in shame’ at tonight’s Brexit vote defeat as she used the momentous result to incite a fresh push for Scottish independence.

(contd)

Another whirling cog in the clockwork

HazardGhost · 13/03/2019 10:30

Watching Victoria Derbyshire and trying not to yell at the telly.

AutumnCrow · 13/03/2019 10:36

I enjoyed the short Heseletine interview, HazardGhost.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 10:48

Watching Victoria Derbyshire and trying not to yell at the telly.

We rarely watch TV news now. At the risk of sounding "sneery" it's clearly not aimed at us, so why bother ? I gave up radio news late 2017, after a particularly bad case of the Humphries.

We get our news through various newspaper, twitter and forum feeds around the world ...

Only time I see a newspaper is at the supermarket checkout once in a while.

1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 10:51

{bad case of the Humphries.}
Was that when he was peddling bad milk?

HazardGhost · 13/03/2019 10:59

I've reached the point that I just yell at the telly, doesn't matter what anyone on it is saying it's been two years of fannying and ignoring serious problems. I is cross. And need blood pressure tablets...

DG is right but I have no idea who the news is aimed at.

The80sweregreat · 13/03/2019 11:02

Listening to politicians of all sides today on the radio trying to make the bad look good ( somehow!) make me realise that so many of them are not ' fit for purpose'. If nothing else, this crisis has made us see just how terrible our political system is.
I don't have any answers how this can be altered but it's all been an eye opener.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 11:04

We get our news through various newspaper, twitter and forum feeds around the world ...

Only time I see a newspaper is at the supermarket checkout once in a while.

We have shifted to this approach too. Yesterday was a momentous vote. On the train at 7 pm I saw lots of people were all refreshing news feeds.

I was then astonished by 8 pm DH said let's watch the post mitten/ dissection of the vote on the TV. We only have freeview -but there was nothing on other than the news slots.

Surely for an informed and engaged country there should have been a political interview programme scheduled from say 7-9 pm? If it was Germany or the US surely there'd be more main stream engagement?

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 11:04

Post mortem not a post mitten!

SusanWalker · 13/03/2019 11:05

As Alex Andreou pointed out on twitter you never hear the words now let's go to X town which voted overwhelmingly to remain.

Just another way we have been wiped out of the debate.

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 11:05

post mitten

There must6 be some slightly risque comment about a warm hand there ....

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 11:07

Thought post mitten could be a new PMK

DGRossetti · 13/03/2019 11:10

As Alex Andreou pointed out on twitter you never hear the words now let's go to X town which voted overwhelmingly to remain.

The problem now, is going to any "Leave town" is simply going to amplify the chaos the HoC is currently experiencing. Engineers know about positive feedback ... media types seem to know fuck all.

The hardcore Leavers are very angry right now. I look forward to that anger starting to turn on anyone who wasn't a hardline day one Brexiteer ...

(Vaguely reminiscent of a routine Paul Foot does about the most extreme form of homophobia is where a homophobe attacks other homophobes for not being homophobic enough ....)

HazardGhost · 13/03/2019 11:15

Is it a 7pm vote again today?

LonelyandTiredandLow · 13/03/2019 11:16

The remain voice being lost in the general press just continues the idea we were some tiny minority. When I said to my leave friend that I felt my voice hadn't been represented she laughed at me and said that "the entire HoC is remain, that's all we bloody hear about!".

The fact it is only mentioned in public places in hushed tones definitely says a lot about the atmosphere for remainers here. See the mum at my school who won't let me communicate/like her husbands remain posts. She thinks he is "obsessed" rather than diligently checking whether his family will be safe/fed etc.

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