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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

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1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 08:10

QuentinWinters
{Otherwise how is it taking back control of our borders and migration?}
You are getting to the root problem of Brexit, almost all of it is contradictory.
leaving so we can keep everything we had (AKA remaining).
Borders so we can throw them wide open.
Regain Sovereignty we never lost.
Spending billions on extra 'red tape' to make industry more profitable.
The list goes on.

GingerPCatt · 13/03/2019 08:14

What time is the no deal vote today? Need to fortify myself with wine and chocolate.

67chevvyimpala · 13/03/2019 08:17

They'll all be in their local wetherspoons celebrating

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 08:25

Honesty box is ridiculous
It is the dishonest traders that are of most concern re external borders

But the boxx is for traders and goods what about people? Does this mean that NI will be effectively within Shengen so free circulation of EU citizens who say arrive via Dublin on the Island of Ireland? Then passport and visa checks at NI ports and airports if the Leave via say Belfast on exit?

Sorry I'm probably bring super stupid?

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2019 08:26

I would bet on the 'we'll just manage' types to be the first to complain when prices start to seriously rise.

The person who has said this to me is a single mother who works around 16 hours a week who lives on a council estate.

She's a good person, and reasonably bright. But she really does not get the implications for herself. She would be reliant on her disabled elderly parents.

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SingingBabooshkaBadly · 13/03/2019 08:27

My leave voting MP is holding a Facebook poll on whether people would vote leave or remain if there were another vote today. Poll is currently at 52:48 in favour of Remain with 85,000 votes. The referendum result here was 62:38 for leave with 65,000 votes.

Not sure what that tells you as I suppose anyone can take part in the poll regardless of where they live but I was just happy to not to see a massive result for leave.

Mind you, the comments people are leaving on his page in response to his message about last night’s vote make for grim reading.Lots of ‘No Deal now!’ drum banging.

1tisILeClerc · 13/03/2019 08:33

lonelyplanetmum
I think I am correct that Ireland isn't a Shengen country.
At this stage it is all we can do to speculate as so many things will change, some radically, depending on what exactly happens between now and 29th. While it is interesting to consider these things, no one KNOWS.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 08:34

Who's the MP singing? We can vote- might as well.

I can't decide if there's all to play for, or nothing to play for. All I know is it shouldn't ever have been a game.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2019 08:34

A MP doing a face book poll?!

All MPs should understand these are meaningless trash that can be gamed! These are people who should be able to scrutinise the quality of data as its a crucial part of their job!!!!

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HazardGhost · 13/03/2019 08:36

I'm starting to consider Revoke more seriously. It seems like a very Tory thing to do, austerity for years, break the people, hurt the people, put a complex decision to the people and lie to them about facts. Pretend to listen to the people, piss money up the wall and spend frivolously to mock the people for voting for something which will hurt them further. Anger every neighbour you have. Lie some more. Badly prepare the country for a deadly crash out. Spend more money. Piss the neighbours off further. Then revoke at the very last second and act as if nothing ever happened. Just so Tory to me, made the poor poorer, alienated our neighbours, wasted money but that's ok because it's rich people wasting money and that's fine. By revoking history won't judge to harshly this is a short 2 year window in an old country. It'll barely get a mention.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/03/2019 08:38

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/785554/Tariff_Reference_Document_12_March_2019.pdf

How on earth are they going to implement all of this in just two weeks?

KennDodd · 13/03/2019 08:39

I'm convinced (after taking to them) that people who bang on about 'no deal' have fucking no clue what it actually means.

TatianaLarina · 13/03/2019 08:40

While the possibility of Revoke has increased along with No Deal, I still don’t think Revoke will happen.

I think the vote against No Deal will win fairly comfortably, extension will scrape in. I don’t think it will be as ‘easy’ as Merkel says to get the EU to agree extension - I think there will be ‘robust’ debate, with a chance for countries to register how pissed off they are at the U.K, but ultimately it will be given.

Be interesting to see what rationale the government comes up with for extension.

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 08:40

lonelyplanetmum I
think I am correct that Ireland isn't a Shengen country.

Ahhh yes you're right so EU citizens enter in Dublin on EU passport- no visa required. For arguments sake let's say they Travel around Ireland a bit- cross the border (taking tourist photos of the electronic honesty boxes laughing their heads off). Then have free movement around NI as no border but get stopped leaving from Belfast airport to London as they forgot to get visas - correct?

But isn't this treating NI and U.K. differently?

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2019 08:41

www.gov.uk/guidance/eu-exit-avoiding-a-hard-border-in-northern-ireland-in-a-no-deal-scenario

NI advice

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RedToothBrush · 13/03/2019 08:41

But isn't this treating NI and U.K. differently?

Yes

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/03/2019 08:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peregrina · 13/03/2019 08:44

I'm convinced (after taking to them) that people who bang on about 'no deal' have fucking no clue what it actually means.

The BBC (not surprisingly IMO) persistently ask the wrong questions. Instead of asking general questions and getting the baby boomer generation (of which I am one) to wax nostalgic about how their parents managed during the war, they should ask specific questions about shopping. You paid £3 for this item, are you willing to pay £6 for it? Your last weekly shop came to £100, will you be willing to pay £220 for the same basket of goods? Or will you whine about price increases?

lonelyplanetmum · 13/03/2019 08:44

But the advice is all about goods. The motivation behind the ref was allegedly about people.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/03/2019 08:47

Exactly Lonelyplanet - anyone who wants to will be able to come in from Europe via Ireland. It's not exactly taking back control....

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 08:47

Or will you whine about price increases?
As your income sinks and you're made redundant.

Inniu · 13/03/2019 09:01

Totally confused reading the NI no deal arrangements. It seems to be rather than an honesty box there just are no tariffs bringing goods into NI. The tariffs applying to the rest of the UK just don’t apply to NI.

What happens when you move those goods on from NI to GB?

Looks like a f**k you to NI and possibly to the DUP for not supporting Mays deal

jasjas1973 · 13/03/2019 09:01

In regard to an extension and the EP elections..... why is this a particular problem?

If May had waited another 12 or 18 months before triggering A50, these elections would have been smack bang in the middle of the A50 2 year period.

Or is it yet another example of why A50 isn't fit for purpose?

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 09:03

To be fair, I recall that the EU elections were the reason why the EU was pushing May to trigger A50 asap.

FishesaPlenty · 13/03/2019 09:04

Honesty box is ridiculous

The whole UK taxation system is based on voluntary disclosure of what's owed. VAT, Income Tax, Corporation Tax, PAYE etc. all rely on the same principle, as does the customs declaration system for imports and exports.

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