Westminstenders: Here we go again

[RedToothBrush]

Vote 12th March: Meaningful Vote on the Withdrawal Agreement

Vote 13th March: If WA fails, vote on No Deal

Vote 14th March: If WA fails, vote on A50 extension

Not much more to add at this stage that's not repeating what's been said before.

and more determined to achieve it?

Which begs the question why he was less determined before.

{The only real problem is my lack of language skills and fear of moving to a place where I can’t communicate.}

'Be brave, let the farce be with you'.
There is nowhere on earth where the basic requirements of life, food, shelter and communication with others does not exist. Life may not be as you had planned, but it won't necessarily be bad and with a positive outlook could well be better.

If ds1 wasnt in the middle of gcses I'd have pushed far more to leave.

Waves to sparkly, Bellini and queen of thorns
It's freezing here and I have a nasty journey over the tops ahead of me today...

@Grinchly - I've just done the journey over the tops. M62 was still clear but heavy driving snow that was settling on the hard shoulder and obviously on the surrounding area. They were putting salt down on the Lancashire side. I'm now below the snow line, as it were, on the Lancashire side that had snow this morning but it's cleared up.

We really weren't ready psychologically I don't think for the internet and carrying supercomputers in our pockets.

I do think the speed of change is a huge factor. I'm mid thirties and so in my mid teens when we got the internet and that was earlier than most of the people I grew up with. The sad fact is that a large proportion of the people making decisions about our country have no real understanding of the internet at all. They didn't grow up with it, they probably barely use it now. Plenty of them will have no shame at all in telling people how they just don't really get computers and this IT lark.

These people have no access to or even real understanding of the existence of a huge swathe of reality.

Its something I have found quite terrifying ever since I worked as IT support in local government.

I would like to leave but every country requires my qualifications to be assessed and top up exams so I can be admitted to practise. It would've been better / easier to become an accountant in hindsight!

We have relatives (DH's brother & family) in NZ, but the cost of living over there is awful and I'm not sure I'd want to go that far either. I think it's something we may consider, maybe, if we feel it's the best option.

{M62 was still clear but heavy driving snow that was settling on the hard shoulder and obviously on the surrounding area. They were putting salt down on the Lancashire side. I'm now below the snow line, as it were, on the Lancashire side that had snow this morning but it's cleared up.}
Not rubbing it in but it's sunny lowlands where I am this morning.

{They didn't grow up with it, they probably barely use it now. Plenty of them will have no shame at all in telling people how they just don't really get computers and this IT lark. }
I think this is a little unfair. You have the 'luxury' of GUI interfaces and will have little empathy for those who had computers before this when you had to use command line and any 'character' out of place would halt everything. With a GUI interface, like using Microsoft Word templates, you are channeled into a straightjacket that (mostly) works.

Went out to a party last night.
All remainers, mostly very left wing
both DH and utterly shocked by the lack of understanding of Brexit
most had no idea that 29th March is important
many denied that the Russian interference is real
at least one thought that no Deal means no Brexit

A second vote would be more of a car crash than the first.

As a mild tease of myself, I remember describing the then new phenomenon of WYSIWYG (rather than the old black? blue? screens with green?, blue? computer script to my parents as "I don't know what it stands for but essentially what you see is what you get"

We had no computer classes at school, just a 3-day course during one 6th form holiday,
in which we typed a simple program ... and used paper tape !
That was a very forward-thinking school for 1973

At my 1st uni, we had punch cards
Only had actual screens & keyboards during my MSc

AH, the joys of ONE wrong character and then standing in a queue of other students to punch a new card
or to write a new tape of the entire program

Different experiences that have formed us

I'm sure that using poor resolution monorome screens 40 hours per week for years are what contributed to my visual disability now

In my job I have clients from all demographics. The ones who are least computer literate are young men in their 20s and 30s, with many not even having an email address.

I've no idea why this is, but it's what I commonly find. I know very few people of my age (early-40s) and older who haven't embraced technology in some way or other.

Prettybird
For training purposes I carry a 3 1/2 inch floppy disc in my briefcase.
Showed it to some of DSs friends
"You 3d printed the icon" they said

I don't see why a P.V that was W.A vs Revoke/ remain (which is where the Kyle amendment seems to be headed) would be a car crash. The worst case scenario is that the W.A would win ... and as that is currently our best case scenario - we would be in a much better position.

And Farage has promised not to campaign or vote in a wa/revoke PV - and as told other leavers not to turn out. Which is a definite win for the entire nation.

I think this is a little unfair. You have the 'luxury' of GUI interfaces and will have little empathy for those who had computers before this when you had to use command line and any 'character' out of place would halt everything. With a GUI interface, like using Microsoft Word templates, you are channeled into a straightjacket that (mostly) works.

Firstly I did indeed have a computer at home before GUI interfaces and remember pre-windows days very well, thanks. I was young, but it was there.

But, second, this wasn't the point I was making. I'm not talking about people not being able to code, I'm talking about politicians and senior public servants who can barely use a mouse or navigate the internet. I don't think it's unfair to think that this is a problem.

TiP Many Remainers assume that most Remainers know the basics about Brexit

Not really true:

On average, Remainers will have had more education, uni etc
Most realise the horrible complexity of untangling 45 years of integration
Realise Brexit is likely to make problems worse
Will believe far fewer myths from Boris & co about the EU

However, only a tiny % of the population - sadly not including most MPs - is as well-informed even as Westministenders

• and we certainly don't know everything, so we are likely to experience many surprises too

TIP 😮

I learnt to type on a pre war cast iron typewriter.

It weighed almost as much as I did at the time!

I don't think politicians being IT-illiterate is a wide problem - all are twittering away and I expect can manage a Google
It's not even a serious problem if they were IT-illiterate

The issue is how ignorant they are of basic facts about how international trade, travel and a modern country works

Previous generations of politicians knew far more of that - but from social interaction, attending briefings, reading books

imo, many politicans have given up all that because the internet has enabled them to stay in an echo chamber

The problem is that too many politicians - like the public - put feelz first and deliberately ignore facts

It's wilful ignorance
caused by ideology and nationalist arrogance

The ones who are least computer literate are young men in their 20s and 30s, with many not even having an email address.

A lot of young people just don't feel they have a need for an email address. They communicate through social media and never send emails. I believe it was seeing that his nieces or something didn't use email or have an email address that led Mark Zuckerburg to add email into facebook.

All of this peoples vote, HoC voting and whatever is all political theatre. On 29 March the EU need a note from the UK prime Minister saying Remain/WA (as it stands)/'no deal'. Nothing else is of any real significance and seeing as the UK can't make it's mind up in a decisive way, the default 'no deal' crash out is what they are working towards.

For business and to communicate with national / local govt departments, EMail is normally required

. The PM only need send a note for Revoke

. If the WA passes, she needs a note requesting 3 months extension to pass the WAIB etc

. For No Deal, she need do nothing; it just happens

6-8 weeks would do for the WAIB - no point debating much once the WA is passed.

{But, second, this wasn't the point I was making. I'm not talking about people not being able to code, I'm talking about politicians and senior public servants who can barely use a mouse or navigate the internet. I don't think it's unfair to think that this is a problem.}
Sorry yes this is a good observation. I think solicitors and other lawyers are still using quills and carrier pigeons. Many laws are years behind 'technology'.

I don't think politicians being IT-illiterate is a wide problem - all are twittering away and I expect can manage a Google
It's not even a serious problem if they were IT-illiterate

I used to be IT support for county councillors and I can assure you its a huge problem. It gets less so every election as younger people come in but there is still an issue. The people you see on social media are only a small proportion of our politicians and even some of those on will have their accounts managed by assistants and never touch it themselves. I used to know councillors who had their emails printed off, would write the reply and then an assistant would type and send it.

Lack of understanding of the internet and social media amongst politicians is a huge issue if you are concerned about fair elections and national security.

What many don't see they don't acknowledge as a problem. If they don't engage with or even recognise the internet as a fundamental part of the way many people communicate and consume information than they won't be putting the work and resources into protecting us from false information and manipulation.