Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The Rebellion

970 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2019 22:43

This week is the start of another big week. Touted (again) as high noon. However the end of February marks a watershed in many ways. Parliament simply can not kick the can further. Its last stand time.

Three Cabinet ministers are openly saying back Cooper-Boles. They are joined by other ministers and intend to vote for it regardless of the government position. And will break protocol by refusing to resign to do so. This leaves May with the option of accepting it or sacking them.

The breaking of collective responsibility would be a bit deal. But May can not easily sack them. She simply has so little power left.

These ministers are backed by up to 100 moderates too. And with the emergence of the TIGGERS the mood has changed with others emboldened in their rebellion and arguably more likely to go.

Meanwhile Corbyn is losing even more authority. In what looks like a last ditch attempt to retain remain support in the face of the TIGGERS whilst also leaving to the point where it is realistic, noises are being made that Labour are about to back a People's Vote. It sounds symbolic rather than meaningful in anyway.

The antisemitic row, however, seems to be engulfing the party even further with MPs seen as Jewish, or not loyal Corbynites subject to intense amounts of abuse for being diplomatic or sympathetic in the face of resignations. The spectacle of Labour infighting has been laid bare in a very public way and it doesn't look healthy and is swallowing all column inches over and above any policy regarding either austerity or Brexit.

What this means for votes this week is important. The power of the whip on both sides of the house is completely fractured. MPs are more likely to vote with conscience than party lines than previously.

Where this leads us is now wide open.

An extension now looks all but inevitable. But for how long, at what price and for what ends ultimately in terms of a deal or no deal.

This noise seems very much at odds with other voices.

The Government itself, however, still seems to be planning to get WA legislation through parliament at the last minute at the end of March. (This would also involve May using measures which break parliamentary constitutional arrangements). And prominent leavers are suggesting that an extention will just kill Brexit off completely.

A GE is also very much looming. The TIGGERS emergence is such a threat that both parties will now possibly want it sooner rather than later (for slightly differing reasons). They will not want them to become established or prepared for an election. But calling an election now closes parliament and enables no deal by default. A GE after an extension or Brexit is a different prospect too.

Things are likely to get very busy this week. Time to brace once again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
SeeYouLaterUserData · 24/02/2019 07:57

pmk

Lucygoeswalkies · 24/02/2019 08:00

PMK. Thanks Red.

jasjas1973 · 24/02/2019 08:01

Decormad38 You'll also need up to 2 driving permits (4 if your partner will be driving) - Spain and the rest of EU, your travel insurance will rocket and there is difficulties with pre existing conditions.

May will not be stopping the Madness! it's the Will of the People and it won't be frustrated......

www.itv.com/news/2019-02-23/i-wont-allow-brexit-vote-to-be-frustrated-theresa-may-promises-tories/

BiglyBadgers · 24/02/2019 08:07

Gosh, jas. Makes me glad I can't drive.

TheNorthWestPawsage · 24/02/2019 08:45

Lurking behind the sofa

HesterThrale · 24/02/2019 08:49

So Arron Banks and Leave.EU wrote to Leave constituency voters, in a campaign against their Remain-leaning MPs, in a fairly unpleasant letter:
Dear Voter,
Your Conservative MP Damian Collins is a disgrace.
Despite representing a constituency that voted 62-38 in favour of Brexit, Mr Collins, who voted Remain, has never respected the result. He is a snake in the grass.

Have any leading Remain figures been actively trying to get Remain constituencies to campaign against their Leave-leaning MPs? There are 34 Remain areas which have (some quite senior) Leave MPs. Are their local parties trying to deselect them anyway? I'm interested to know because there seems a big difference between Leave and Remain tactics.

inews.co.uk/news/politics/pro-brexit-mps-represent-remain-constituencies/

leave.eu/arron-banks-letter-to-damian-collins-constituents/

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brexit-bankroller-arron-banks-launches-campaign-to-deselect-decent-liberal-tories-1-5715906

NoWordForFluffy · 24/02/2019 08:49

PMK.

Thank you, Red, as ever. These threads mean I'm about 1000 x more informed than if I was going it alone.

Interesting article on May there. And confirms what we all suspected, sadly.

Violetparis · 24/02/2019 08:52

Thanks Red. The timing of the story about Theresa May is interesting too, wondering who is behind it.

GeistohneGrenzen · 24/02/2019 08:57

Chattanooga Cain Canute

Bodoni · 24/02/2019 08:58

I’m finding twitter.com/toriesvsbrexit an interesting (mostly encouraging) thread to follow.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2019 08:58

I still can't believe that Labour is more anti-semitic than the Tories. I should add that I have never lived anywhere with very large Jewish populations, to my knowledge.

The majority of the Jewish community were Labour leaning just a few years ago. This is largely related to the left's history of promoting and defending human rights. The right has a much more checkered history on this front and has never really been seen as a champion and defender in the same way. The right in recent years, up until the emboldened far right, has been more restrained in its racism and anti-semitism in order to win the more Liberal quarters of the centre right. That definitely is changing but is centred far more on Islamophobia.

You therefore have two forces at play; the first is a dynamic which suggests you have to pick 'sides' between Israel and Palestine - Jews and Muslims and plays on this traditional religious tension (which some in the Jewish community will be guilty of - but I stress that others will find utterly abhorrent and be completely opposed to) and a second force which comes from simply an utter sense of betrayal of the ideals of the left which has fostered up that much mistrust that the right is almost 'straight forward' in comparison. I don't think this sense of betrayal can be easily underestimated and is the stronger force in more liberal circles.

The former force works well in today's political climate due to political polarisation being the trend, and the two major parties almost picking a side works to their advantage of dehumanising and demonising the other.

I know its been said that the Conservatives are not held to the same standard over Islamophobia as Labour have been over antisemitism. I agree. The racism of Boris Johnson has been undeniable and obvious.

The difference is that the Conservatives have never stood as the champions of political correctness and guardians of rights in the same way as Labour. Labour behaving in this way, therefore represents not just racism but also hypocrisy and a shallowness of conviction of ideals. What do they stand for if they don't stand for the rights of the minority and against the bullying of more marginalised and outside voices?

Given that the basis of much of the traditional Jewish Labour vote has centred on the value and purpose of rights and protections, this questioning is a big deal. Its broken this bond of loyalty between labour party and the Jewish community.

I don't think the Jewish vote is more right leaning at all. I think the betrayal and open hostility just means that staying in the Labour Party has become impossible. It's harder to justify the abuse of your own to your own community when it's personal. If it's directed at you, it affects you psychologically and grinds you down. At some point something will give. People will just move to anywhere which might, if acting collectively, give them even a chance of having voice heard at all.

The Labour Party also isn't free of charges of Islamophobia either. The Northern Leave vote certainly contains shades of it and the Labour party leadership have pandered to the 'RedKip' vote every bit as much as the Tories have pandered to 'BlueKip'

I personally see Islamophobia and antisemitism as two sides of the same coin. Both parties are chronically institutionally racist from the top down. It suits both parties at present not to do much to tackle it.

David Lammy can shout about it all day, with good reason, real passion and conviction. But with Corbyn as party leader who likes using grievance as a recruitment tool for some communities, it doesn't suit him to actually do anything genuinely useful on a cross party basis unless it's the right PR opportunity. Likewise for May.

That's the whole thing of current politics. May and Corbyn's common interest in enabling the others awful behaviour helps give them power in their own cultural bubble at the expense of moderate voices who can see the unjustifiable being justified 'because you wouldn't want the other side to be on charge'.

This is the culture war in which wedges are driven into society to force them to pick a side and ignore nuance and stops them from condemning 'othering'.

Nick Cohen has written extensively on the betrayal by the values of the liberal left and I find his arguments compelling (though at times challenging and deeply uncomfortable to confront).

I think the promotion of 'righteousness' and political 'purity' is one of the worst things going on in politics at the moment. Humans are by nature hypocritical and make mistakes. What makes us better is to recognise this and admit it when it becomes obvious as a problem and to take responsibility for that. The absence of that and this blind defence of the Indefensible actions 'your own' is just pure corruption.

I think most of the public do see it or sense it, even if they can't verbalise it explicitly. Almost every single person I've spoken to about politics in the last three years, whether they be a friend or a stranger, seem to express this frustration in some form or other.

OP posts:
WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 24/02/2019 09:00

PMK

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2019 09:06

www.politico.eu/article/the-independent-group-labour-tories-mp-brexit-what-uks-political-crack-up-means-for-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
What UK’s political crack-up means for Brexit

Inside No. 10 Downing Street, some of May’s more pessimistic advisers cannot see a way through the crisis that does not end in another election. “I keep going over it and all roads seem to lead to an election,” said one senior adviser.

OP posts:
Hasenstein · 24/02/2019 09:16

Thanks, Red and everyone else on here for my only source of sanity.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 24/02/2019 09:25

HMRC have said an increased workload from Brexit has caused delays to letters containing fines for late tax returns. I did wonder if the bumper windfall from tax was more about companies tying up their taxes before they left.

Peregrina · 24/02/2019 09:27

Thanks Red for that comprehensive analysis. I has certainly helped me understand why the Tories aren't gone after for anti-antisemitism in the same way as Labour, although they most certainly are, in long line from Mosley, the Mitfords, Edward VIII (and IMO no doubt other royals) onwards.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 24/02/2019 09:33

I don't remember seeing this on the thread. outsourcing work to US to help with Brexit couldn't have any fishy connections with Fox and trade deals, could it? Also found this line worrying "Two of the research contracts are to monitor news and social media reports about Brexit for the Department for Exiting the European Union." Propaganda machine in full swing. This kind of expense will be needed "for decades to come" as we don't have the skills or expertise.

Peregrina · 24/02/2019 09:36

Talk of a GE fills me with dismay. People vote like sheep - in Deadwood Redwood's constituency, despite being Remain, they returned him again last time. Ditto with Kate Hoey.

Then of course there are those wonderful leavers who never voted before and won't vote in a GE, who might also help influence the vote, if they could be bothered, but pandering to them is apparently more important that accommodating those of us who do take our electoral duties seriously.

DGRossetti · 24/02/2019 09:37

.

Sostenueto · 24/02/2019 09:41

Oh Tories certainly do have anti semetics in it. Bernard Mathews oh ye turkey giant certainly was one. He used to spinster our band years ago and wanted us to play at a function he was organising and wanted music from musicals. All fine till he got programme list when he rang up musical director with the words ' your not playing that Jew music at my residence' ( bearing in mind most musicals were written by Jewish composers) which was even much worse as our conductor was Jewish and he then called an emergency meeting to hand in his resignation which we all refused to accept and we refused to play at the function too even though it would jeopardize our sponsorship. There's no room in music for racism ( as far as we were concerned) and this was over 20 years ago!

1tisILeClerc · 24/02/2019 09:46

{The US-based Boston Consulting Group has received five contracts, worth £14.2m, to work with the Cabinet Office, Departments for Environment, Exiting the European Union and Business.}

So, far from 'taking back control' the government is busy hiring US companies to 'advise' on UK matters, and by implication the UK is encouraging/requesting the USA to dig into many corners of UK life to gather the data necessary.
The UK government, supposedly charged with 'running' the UK is effectively outsourcing large areas of government business.
Having got the USA involved with such 'intimate details' it would suggest to me that the UK gov has given up 'control' altogether, because once that data has been 'processed' in the USA it can't be undone.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2019 09:51

A GE without an A50 extension or Revoke would dissolve Parliament and automatically result in No Deal

A GE a few weeks / months after Brexit is quite likely
if the government collapses
or
if the 2 main parties want to crush the Tiggers before they can get an organisation and policies to fight a GE

67chevvyimpala · 24/02/2019 09:54

Thanks red.

Pmk

LonelyandTiredandLow · 24/02/2019 09:55

1tisI that's how I read it. Massive data breaches and behind scenes deals between the two, back door for TTIP. Confirms our worries we are in step with the Trump leadership a little too closely.

prettybird · 24/02/2019 10:03

I'm so grateful to my parents for bringing me up to be "blind" to people's religion (especially given their South African upbringings; my dad also refused to follow his dad into the Free Masons). It just didn't occur to me that you could "tell" someone's religion by their name or how they looked - and anyway, why was it relevant? Confused

English Literature also illustrates how engrained and "normal" anti-semitism was, with Chaucer, Shakespeare and Dickens all providing examples Sad (Although I believe that Dickens was challenged on it and did try to redress the balance).

In memoriam feline queen Flowers

Westminstenders: The Rebellion
Swipe left for the next trending thread