Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

walkingdead
It’s interesting that you think the UK govt cares very much for NI. I don’t know of a single person over here they believes that. On what do you base that opinion?

And in relation to my other question, what incentive would the UK govt have to research and invest heavily in the technology for an open border once rhey’d Left? There is zero chance that they would follow through without the pressure of the backstop. You are deluding yourself and the rest of us to suggest otherwise.

There is not a border in the world that relies on tech solutions only

someone has to be first

There maybe a reason for that...... if the Norwegians and Swedes with little history of violence and love of tech, cannot streamline customs, then much like colonising Mars, it may be beyond current abilities.

It seems to me that a lot of the argument is the belief that the EU just won't let the UK exit. But the UK is exiting anyway on the 29th March with no backstop, and there's nothing the EU can do to stop it, so I don't really get this argument at all. It just seems it would make more sense for them to drop the backstop and get their billions and keep selling the UK their stuff.

I just don't understand the argument that they want to keep the UK in by forcing the UK out with no agreed rules at all? It doesn't seem to make sense?

You’ve lost me Apileof
It just seems it would make more sense for them to drop the backstop and get their billions and keep selling the UK their stuff.

By dropping the backstop to appease the UK The EU would be putting the UK, a 3rd country before Ireland, a member state. Ireland needs the security of the backstop therefore it should trump any other financial incentives to do a deal.

There is not a border in the world that relies on tech solutions only -
someone has to be first.

So does that mean there's no border like that already so there isn't a ready to go solution? I thought you said there was a ready to go solution? Obviously the UK have been getting it ready for the 29th March? If there's no need for the backstop?

(Is it something to do with underground cables?)

HappyHugs
I base my opinion on being N.Irish myself, most of my large extended family live there, having a lot of friends there, being interested and following the news/politics there, having a parent (& family) from both the NI and ROI and visiting there (both parts) several times a year (god bless easyjet). I dont live there now (not far away) but have spent most of my life there. fyi I dont claim to speak for anyone, just my own opinions.

what incentive would the UK govt have to research and invest heavily in the technology for an open border once they’d Left
Well aside from the loaded words, 'invest heavily'. I do think they have an incentive to make the border work, no one in the UK govt wants to go back to the 'troubles', that is the incentive.

So I would suggest you are deluding yourself and the rest of us to suggest the UK is throwing NI to the wolves.

There is not a border in the world that relies on tech solutions only -
someone has to be first

The trouble is, if such equipment were easy to invent, somebody would have done it by now and made themselves a nice lot of money. I'm sure there would be a lot of demand at customs borders around the world for a means of checking goods without the need to stop as it would prevent costly delays. So we must be some way away from having the necessary capability to check the interior contents of a lorry without stopping it.

I am extremely untechnical but assume that even if the lorries could somehow be scanned from the outside or with robotics, this couldn't be done while it was trundling full speed down the motorway. There would have to be some stopping point.

So I would suggest you are deluding yourself and the rest of us to suggest the UK is throwing NI to the wolves

Whatever side of the debate you are on, it is clear that the Conservatives, since at least 2015, have been governing to keep the tory party together.
NI or indeed the rest of us, are an afterthought.

I am extremely untechnical but assume that even if the lorries could somehow be scanned from the outside or with robotics, this couldn't be done while it was trundling full speed down the motorway. There would have to be some stopping point

a) number plates etc can be scanned whilst lorries are travelling at well over 100mph
b) If they had to be 'scanned' by robotics it can be done at the origin of the lorry, destination of the lorry, or anywhere else in between. It does not have to be at the border.

Number plates etc fine, walking, but customs checks require the contents of at least some vehicles to be checked and I can't see how that could be done without stopping the vehicle, which would require border infrastructure.

There’s no way you’re from NI, walkingdead. None of the language you use is right. You were not born and raised there - you are lying.

Op thanks for this thread. Have newly understood some things, shockingly late, as it happens

So the people saying that the backstop is unnecessary because there's technology that can be used instead don't have any actual examples of the technology?

So does that means the backstop is necessary? That's a shame.

Or is the technology a secret? Is that why the UK won't show it to the EU? Maybe the UK is planning to make a lot of money by selling the secret technology to other countries that want invisible borders?

I'm sure other countries wouldn't buy it unless it worked though. Now there's a thought - if the UK has it and can sell it to other counties, wouldn't that prove to the EU It does work? And the UK could get out of the backstop then! Yay!

(I still think it must be something underground. That scans everything that passes over it. Something like those scanner things from Star Trek. Like a giant MRI scanner except it works from underground when lorries drive over it.)

It just does seem weird that the UK won't show or tell the EU about the technology. It must be really really really top secret. But you'd think they'd show them something - I mean couldn't they just do something like set up the underground scanner thing, get the EU scientists to drive a lorry over it and then tell them exactly what was in the lorry? I mean that would prove it works, wouldn't it? Without giving away the secret of how it works? And then we could get rid of the backstop thing because there'd be no need for it? Why don't they do that? A demonstration of the technology? Couldn't everyone agree then? They could do it a few times with all different things in the lorries just to show it works for all types of goods. Scans the lorry, and tells you everything about what's in it, right down to the amount of - I don't know - for example, chlorine in the chicken?

I can't understand why the UK won't do a demo. But then again if no deal is not a big deal I suppose it doesn't matter.

Or is the UK not doing the demonstration because the UK doesn't want to pay the 39 billion? Now I think I might be getting places. Now it's starting to make sense.

Still I'm glad the technology exists. I do feel very reassured. Won't it be awfully expensive though? Installing all that technology under roads? Would all the roads have to be resurfaced afterwards? Is the technology safe (I'm just thinking of things like x-rays and pregnant women). Wouldn't it be very expensive for the NHS if it gave off radiation or something? And it hasn't really been tested or anything has it? Seeing as it's so new? What if it causes cancer?

What if the UK puts it in at Dover to help with the lorries getting through customs and everyone there starts getting cancer too? In fact why isn't it in at Dover? Wouldn't it be the very thing to speed things up there? Isn't it exactly what's needed there? The very thing? No need to stop the lorries at all to do customs checks at Dover! Use the technology! In your face, EU! No Deal, here we come! No need to stockpile anyone!

I must say I'm impressed with the very very high level of security about the technology, that none of this has leaked at all. I just knew the UK had to have a master plan to provide security and stability for all its citizens while Brexiting. I mean that's Theresa May's actual slogan isn't it? Strong and stable?

Thanks for helping me figure out Brexit, everyone! I see my main stumbling block is that i just didn't believe the technology existed. When I used my imagination instead I could really just visualise big lorries carrying goods everywhere with no need for border checks - you know just like it is now - except this time in my imagination I can just imagine all the technology buried underground doing all the scanning. Maybe with a couple of officers wearing hard hats just keeping at eye on things underground here and there. People are really going to be so surprised on 30th of March when there's no traffic jams at Dover and the technology is invisibly doing all the customs clearance!

(It's absolutely amazing how they managed to bury all those cables underground without anyone noticing.)

I now understand what it is to believe in Brexit.

Interesting ideas Apile. I must admit in my mind I was envisioning something a bit like the scanners they use on suitcases at the airport but built on the motorway for the lorries to drive through at 60mph, but instead of looking for knives it picked out hidden immigrants or dodgy Chinese baby milk concealed in the container. Maybe we could pool our ideas and make a bit of money?

There’s no way you’re from NI, walkingdead. None of the language you use is right. You were not born and raised there - you are lying

Screw you Somerville, I have been on MN for years and this is the first thread ever I have mentioned where I am from (offensive as some people think I am). Which I have done because the topic is so important.

If my 'language' doesn't match your expectations then I suspect its because you have existed in a bigoted bubble of sectarianism. Anyone from NI living on the mainland knows you have to adapt your language to the audience. And MN would not allow me to use the language I would potentially use when in a pub in PC England because to many snowflakes would be offended. So yeah FU.

FYI MN any 'foul' language is just for dramatic effect, none of it is meant to personally insult individual MN posters. So please dont ban me again.

I think it's only invisible if it's underground, Dippy. Sorry! Unless you think there's actually really invisible technology? Maybe walkingdeadfangirl knows? But if it was invisible wouldn't that be dangerous? On a road? I mean if a driver saw a kind of empty lay-by, but really with the invisible scanning machine in it, and decided to pull over couldn't they just crash right into it? Really i think the technology must be underground.

I'm surprised they haven't used your idea at Dover though? Wouldn't it be far cheaper than all that excavation work?

Oh I forgot about having to keep it all secret. It does has to be underground for that. Sorry!

I've also forgotten why it has to be secret. I remember thinking earlier that the UK should just show everyone the amazing technology and if they aren't showing it, and it defintely exists (because several politicians have say so), it must be really top secret.

It's the only thing that makes sense. They could still do the demo though, I'm sure although maybe I haven't imagined things enough. It's actually amazing really that anyone has mentioned the technology at all, seeing as it has to be kept secret. You'd nearly think it would have been a lot smarter to just sign up to the backstop thingy, and then the technology would still be completely secret.

Anyway thanks for the offer but I'm not really a practical or creative person I just kind of close my eyes and imagine things exist. Not sure that's what anyone would want In a business partner!

HappyHugs

Missed your post earlier - I was trying very hard to imagine why the EU would be insisting on the backstop when everyone is saying it's unnecessary because of the (top secret) invisible technology (I don't mean really invisible- that would be too far fetched - but it is obviously underground or something).

So taking it that the backstop is really unnecessary why would the EU insist upon it? The answer that was given - to force the UK to stay in the EU. But it looks like the UK can just exit anyway with no backstop, there is no need for a deal, so why would they just not drop the back stop and collect their 39 billion?
Unless of course there is no invisible technology. Then the EU position would make sense to me.

Luckily for us all several politicians have said there is invisible technology. But as I've explained in my detailed and logical posts above, it's top secret, so the EU don't know about it and they are convinced that a backstop is needed.

I'm still not sure why it has to be top secret though. I'm probably not imagining hard enough.

Walking dead - you obviously care deeply about having no checks - however non disruptive between NI and GB. It is surely not too difficult for you to understand that nationalists feel exactly the same way about checks between NI and ROI. Ireland is our country, we don’t want it redivided.

This invisible excuse is sounding more totalitarian cult and less British by the minute.

It's horrifying how BeLeavers arguments descend into cultishness and further away from Britishness with every gasp.

Somerville
There’s no way you’re from NI, walkingdead. None of the language you use is right. You were not born and raised there - you are lying

Totally agree!