Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

....because May signed it!

Once it is opened up, then Spain france et al can chip in with their demands too.

Bottom line is the UK insisted on a UK wide backstop and EU gave into to our demands, i assume May had her reasons to do so and hasn't asked for that part to change.

Why are they insisting on it then? Bit odd to say they don't like it but then refuse to negotiate on it.

But Weetabix I already explained this. You ignored my answer. The UK Govt negotiated it IN. The EU had to be persuaded - they wanted it to apply only to NI.

The negotiations are over. You can’t unilaterally change one part of a deal, it was a proved of give and take. No one can just rip a chunk out and think it’ll all be ok, the whole process would have to start again.

. If ROI are not able to negotiate independently of the EU then yes, it is up to the EU also to do It's very best to uphold the GFA by negotiating fairly

Ireland are upholding their side of the GFA! And the EU are negotiating fairly. They are being fair to the remaining member states and are acting in the best interests of the EU. A deal was agreed. Now the UK wants to renegotiate the deal and is blaming the EU for not rolling over and making it easier to the EU's own detriment.

1. The political reason: it is a Trojan horse to stop Brexit.
2. The reality is it can be used to separate N.I. from the rest of the UK and closer to R.O.I. Obviously something a lot of people in the UK are VERY against.
3. There is no guarantee it will only be in place for a short time. It could actually be used indefinitely.
4. Its is likely to be the basis for a permanent position.
5. Because it could be in place indefinitely, the EU could use it to dictate/control the UK, to our detriment and their advantage.

1. I don't get the Trojan horse to stop Brexit because the UK can exit with no deal, and I've read several things that say no deal will be ok for the UK. Surely if the EU wanted to stop an exit they'd be doing something to stop it by giving in on this backstop thing?
2. I thought from the solutions you gave above it doesn't separate anyone from anything?
3. I thought of it's not needed from the solutions you gave above, it wouldn't be used at all, not to mind indefinitely?
4. Is indefinitely not the same as permanent? So is this not the same as 3?
5. But I thought there's no need for it at all so how could it be used to control the UK? I don't get this at all.

they wanted it to apply only to NI.

But the DUP didn't want NI to be treated differently to the UK did they?

But the DUP didn't want NI to be treated differently to the UK did they?

That’s right and they pull the strings of the UK govt. They speak only for themselves and the majority voice in NI was ignored. Look where that’s brought us.

...thought you didn't want the DUP dictating to the UK ?

Precisely. The NI only backstop would probably have gone ahead if May didn't need the support of the DUP to prop up the government.

Apileofballyhoo

1. I've heard many commentators say that the EU will always seek to do 11th hour deals and so nothing will be clear until the very last minute.

3,4 and 5 - people who distrust the EU see that there is nothing that will compel them to end the backstop even if conditions are met. That means that the UK are bound by certain limitations until the EU agree to release us. Depending on how it benefits them they may never agree. That isn't Brexit is it?

HappyHugs - I agree with a lot (not all) of what you said.

1. The political reason: it offers protection to Irish citizens in NI
   Actually I agree it does, but the HoC wont pass it so its dead. But because the EU are still insisting on the original backstop they are actually insisting on a hard Brexit.

2. The reality is it can be used to remove the separation between NI and ROI. Obviously something a lot of people in Ireland (and the Uk) are VERY for
   I agree some want this, just not the MAJORITY who want to keep the UK together.

3. With the confidence you have in a technical solution the guarantee it would be in place for a short time is virtually cast iron
   If I was given a unilateral veto then we would agree. Unfortunately the EU would have the unilateral veto and they could just ignore any technical solutions indefinitely.

4. It is unlikely to be the basis for a permanent position
   Agree to disagree and have heard Irish 'experts' say that today on the news.

5. Without its inclusion, the UK govt could use Brexit to dictate/control the future position of NI to our detriment and it’s advantage
   Given NI is part of the UK then that is the same as every part of the UK.

Why would the EU want to keep us in a CU backstop which ruins their ability to do their own FTA's but allows us to do FTA's on Services which is 80% of (uk exports) ours?

I don't agree with the DUP pulling the strings. I don't agree with anything much that May or the tories have done.

Likewise I don't agree with the EU.

4) It is unlikely to be the basis for a permanent position
Agree to disagree and have heard Irish 'experts' say that today on the news.

But surely that would only apply if there was no technical solution and you’re confident there would be. How can you play both lines in the same argument? I agree there’s no technical solution likely in the short term so I think it would be in place for a significant period of time, but without it there’s no impetus for the UK to ever seek such a solution. Why would they ever bother? It’s not like they care much for NI.

5) Without its inclusion, the UK govt could use Brexit to dictate/control the future position of NI to our detriment and it’s advantage
Given NI is part of the UK then that is the same as every part of the UK.

Except we’re not the same. In many, many ways (same sex marriage, reproductive rights...) but mainly because the GFA provides us with the right to a border poll for reunification.

the DUP have rode roughshod over their constituents opinions

Where is your proof of that? We have had a general election since the Brexit vote and constituents voted for the DUP in the FULL knowledge of their stance on leaving the EU.

So the DUP are in fact representing the genuine view of a majority of their constituents. Which is what they are supposed to be doing. Its called democracy.

Where is your proof of that? We have had a general election since the Brexit vote and constituents voted for the DUP in the FULL knowledge of their stance on leaving the EU.

So the DUP are in fact representing the genuine view of a majority of their constituents. Which is what they are supposed to be doing. Its called democracy.

I thought you wanted to stick to facts, but here you go again spouting easily verifiable rubbish. The DUP got 28.1% of the vote at the last election. They do not represent the view of the majority.

So the DUP are in fact representing the genuine view of a majority of their constituents. Which is what they are supposed to be doing. Its called democracy.

Perhaps they are but that’s still a minority opinion in NI and since no other NI opinion is being sought or considered then your democracy flies out the window.

Weetabix

And who decides that it is or isn't needed? It needs the EU to agree. If they choose to never agree?

But the EU are forcing the UK out with no deal I thought, and that's worse for the EU? Surely if it was just a question that they don't agree, they'd come to their senses and just agree? Do they not want the 39 billion pounds anymore? Or to sell stuff to the UK?

But surely that would only apply if there was no technical solution and you’re confident there would be
I am very confident their can be a technical solution. But for political reasons I am not confident the EU/ROI would ever allow it.

there’s no impetus for the UK to ever seek such a solution. Why would they ever bother? It’s not like they care much for NI
Guess we part ways there, I am confident they do care very much.

Except we’re not the same. In many, many ways (same sex marriage, reproductive rights...)
That is devolution for you, different parts of the UK do things differently. Given the evolution of humanity the differences are imo only a few years, things change very quickly.

the GFA provides us with the right to a border poll for reunification
Fully support that, Brexit doesn't change it.

The backstop isn't just about trade. Is that so hard to understand, Britain?

There is not a border in the world that relies on tech solutions only....is there?

The DUP got 28.1% of the vote at the last election. They do not represent the view of the majority

That's the democratic system we have. FPTP majority rules.

There is not a border in the world that relies on tech solutions only
someone has to be first.