Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

I’m pointing out an undeniable historic irony at the heart of Brexit.

Not a particularly happy irony, or one I derive any joy from
Well the big grinning face at the end of your initial post seems like you are deriving quite a lot of joy from it.

Quite what bearing British history has on where we are now I don't know.

Given the utter contempt that you clearly have for the UK one might be forgiven for wondering why you choose to live here?

{What stops the UK and ROI making an agreement, without the involvement of the EU? }
The law and the WTO mainly, you really do need to engage a brain sometime.

It could be argued that British history has considerable bearing on Brexit, given Brexit is about rewinding the clock to a previous time. About recapturing past glories. If you disagree with that, then you likely disagree with much of the rhetoric spouted by brexiteers.

Brexit is primarily about unionism and English nationalism, both of which are rooted in history.

Besides, history is ALWAYS relevant. Learn from it or repeat it, as they say. It informs the present.

I’m deeply fond of scotland, thank you for asking. And I look forward to an independent Scotland jointing the EU some day. I hold the Westminster government in increasing levels of contempt as Brexit trundles on.

That said, it’s no surprise to see a brexiteers essentially express “if you don’t like it, leave”.

Irony, irony everywhere.

That said, it’s no surprise to see a brexiteers essentially express “if you don’t like it, leave”.
Not at all. I'm not telling you to leave. Simply expressing my surprise as to why you would want to live in a country that you have such contempt for.

And I don't want to Brexit to rewind the clock. I want to leave the EU because I don't agree with it or with its direction of travel.

The law and the WTO mainly, you really do need

Really? So the law and WTO stop 2 countries from entering into a trade deal?

Then explain to me what arrangements the ROI would make were the situation reversed?

We'd make arrangements not to leave in the first place as we're not fucking stupid, we don't read the Daily Mail, and we all think Boris, Farage and Rees-Mogg are twats.

Why should EU countries (ROI in this case) just expect the UK to give and yet receive nothing in return?

Because the UK and Ireland have a commitment to the GFA. This predates Brexit. Ireland changed its constitution to facilitate this agreement to achieve peace. To stop the bombing and murder of British citizens. The UK absolutely does owe it to the citizens of NI (and Ireland to an extent) to sort this out. The partition of Ireland less than century ago is something that Irish people are still paying for. A no deal brexit will have consequences for Ireland through no fault of our own. So yes, the colonial past does still rankle.

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of British citizens who have applied for Irish passports since brexit in order for them and their children to have a back door into the EU

I ask again. If the UK leaves without a deal and refuses to implement a hard border what happens then? Will the ROI implement one? Who in that case destroys the GFA?

And I'll answer again. If the UK refuses to implement a border for goods with Ireland then it is not allowed to implement a border for goods with any other countries. That's WTO rules.

Really? So the law and WTO stop 2 countries from entering into a trade deal?

EU law does not allow independent trade deals. WTO rules require all countries to be treated equally unless there's a trade agreement.

But really how much "contraband" is likely to cross the border by someone's back garden? Maybe a bag full, but not truck loads.

But it’s not just gardens. There’s literally hundreds of minor roads that cross cross all over the place. Who knows how much would enter the EU? There would be nothing to stop trucks loads crossing a rural road.

Smuggled goods can be taken anywhere within the EU, and beyond and back again, in a car. Why is that permitted?

I don’t understand this. If it’s happening within the EU then the goods are not smuggled. Also don’t know which countries beyond the EU are letting goods in unchecked.

What stops the UK and ROI making an agreement, without the involvement of the EU?
It’s an EU border. They are protecting their borders just as you wish to.

I ask again. If the UK leaves without a deal and refuses to implement a hard border what happens then? Will the ROI implement one? Who in that case destroys the GFA?

The EU will, I imagine, be left with no choice. The Irish govt is trying to strike a balance between not raising the wrong kind of fears at home with talk of a hard border, while trying to make the UK realise the inevitability. The GFA will fail but the Beiatiah govt, not the EU, will be blamed. I have no doubt about this.

Weetabix, with the greatest respect, you are bombarding the thread with questions but answering few yourself.

With all the masses of complications and difficulties we’ve all painstakingly pointed out, how would you propose resolving the issues?

Do you support No Deal? Is that your endgame?

HappyHugs

So if the UK puts up a soft border then they breech the GFA?
If the UK put up a hard border they breech the GFA?
If the ROI put up a border then it's the UK who breech the GFA?

@mavisgreen

My comment was in response to an article explaining how Brexit would affect ROI eg the exchange rate means that goods bought in NI are cheaper and if border crossings are more difficult and limits placed on value of goods that be brought back to ROI then they will loose out on these bargains, or that ordering from companies such as amazon, asos etc will be affected.

Basically it is an article explaining how consumers in the ROI will be adversely affected by no deal Brexit. This is separate to the GFA. But surely if an EU country wants the benefits of trading with the UK then the EU should be more amenable to creating an environment where that can happen?

Why should the UK put the ROI s desire for cheaper goods or amazon deliveries before its own interests when there is no reciprocity offered?

HappyHugs

No I don't want no deal. But neither I suspect do countries within the EU.

Quite why there cannot be meaningful talks in order to solve these difficulties I don't understand.

It appears that the EU is so afraid of other countries wanting to leave (yet why would they if the EU is as good as you all say?) that it seems willing to cause pain to the remaining countries just to make an example of the UK.

Why should the UK put the ROI s desire for cheaper goods or amazon deliveries before its own interests when there is no reciprocity offered?

Here's an idea. Why don't the Brexiteers keep their noses out of the affairs of a sovereign, independent nation. The border in Ireland is a British construction. The British are co-signatories of the GFA. Time to take responsibility for problems of a British making - Brexit and the border.

So if the UK puts up a soft border then they breech the GFA?
If the UK put up a hard border they breech the GFA?
If the ROI put up a border then it's the UK who breech the GFA?

If a border goes up the GFA is breached. Regardless of who does it. But as the instigator of Beexiting without due consideration then yes the UK will get the blame. There’s no getting around that

Quite why there cannot be meaningful talks in order to solve these difficulties I don't understand.

I understood that’s what the negotiations that led to May’s deal were?

It appears that the EU is so afraid of other countries wanting to leave (yet why would they if the EU is as good as you all say?) that it seems willing to cause pain to the remaining countries just to make an example of the UK.

I honestly think this is deusional. The EU may well have preferred this never to have happened but they would not risk harm to an existing member state simply to appease a 3rd country. Why would any member state trust is after that?!

With all this in mind Weetabix what would you suggest?

What’s the least worst next step?

Yet again Weetabix, its all questions from you, yet you singularly fail or attempt to answer those directed toward you.

For some reason you seem to struggle with the concept that when you leave a club/workplace/organisation you lose all the benefits and responsibilities.

It's not about the EU punishing us, it's all about our international responsibilities, brexit screws over europe (inc NI/ROI) and given the history, thats v. dangerous.

Weetabix Of course Ireland will be adversely affected in its dealings with the UK, again and of course the UK should think only of itself! It's the British media and some MPs attitude that the EU and Ireland are deliberately being obstinate and unfair in putting themselves first that is mind boggling.

A hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland nullifies the GFA. I don't think anyone faced with the thought of a breakdown of the peace process and return to civil war in Northern Ireland gives a shiny shit about cheap ASOS deliveries.

A hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland nullifies the GFA. I don't think anyone faced with the thought of a breakdown of the peace process and return to civil war in Northern Ireland gives a shiny shit about cheap ASOS deliveries.

Well said, Mavis.

. I don't think anyone faced with the thought of a breakdown of the peace process and return to civil war in Northern Ireland gives a shiny shit about cheap ASOS deliveries.

Well I didn't post the article as an example of the effects on the ROI.

For some reason you seem to struggle with the concept that when you leave a club/workplace/organisation you lose all the benefits and responsibilities.

Not struggling with them at all. But then nor can other EU countries expect the UK to put them and their wants ahead of the UK can they? Individually, EU countries will suffer if the UK leaves with no deal. You might well argue that the UK will suffer more (I might disagree but park that for a moment) but individual EU countries also stand to loose out. If the EU makes it too difficult to trade with and we get better deals from non EU countries then some countries in the EU will suffer due to drop in trade won't they?

Or consider Spain for example. Unemployment there, particularly amongst young people is very high. What will the effect of no deal be on them? If tourism drops, exports drop, a route for their young people to get jobs here dries up. I'm not saying it will be devastating to them but I'm quite sure that it will have a significant effect on them.

Even if the EU only wants to protect their interests then that is best served by negotiating a deal with us rather than us leaving with no deal. So what is the motivation behind them threatening no deal?

@Apileofballyhoo

Clearly someone in Ireland is sufficiently concerned about buying cheaper goods and mail order deliveries to write an article in the paper about it.

The EU aren't threatening no deal. They're saying the they're sticking to the deal already agreed. It really isn't about punishing the UK or making an example of them. It's about the EU putting the member states first. Yes, initially other countries will suffer because of the UK leaving but that is not the EU's fault and they cannot stop brexit. What they can do is try and put a deal in place that supports the rest of the EU and limits the adverse effects of brexit on the remaining member states. It really isn't all about you!

But then nor can other EU countries expect the UK to put them and their wants ahead of the UK can they?

They are trying to get the Uk to follow its legal and moral obligation to prioritise the needs of Northern Ireland (GFA) which, for better for worse, is currently still part of the UK.

You don’t give a stuff about NI. And you know even less about it than you care. We get that. And frankly, we’re used to it.

The fact that ROI/EU are working so hard to represent the majority opinion of the people of NI, whilst the UK government is concentrating on protecting their own party is significant in and of itself, by the way.