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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

Westministenders Abbreviation FAQ

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Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 23:35

Of course the sad thing is that NI could really have done with the investment that staying in the customs union would have brought them. They'd have been in such a unique and privileged position and God knows they need the economic boost. But the DUP said it wasn't to be...

prettybird · 29/01/2019 23:44

Essentially the WA is just the divorce agreement - in fact, not even that, the decree nisi, the interim judgement. It confirms the outstanding dues and the maintenance payments up to the point that the decree absolute will be awarded (in the UK's case £39 billion: includes a calculation for pensions of MEPs and UK EU civil servants including the execrable UKIP MEPs and for EU projects for which the UK has already committed). It also allows the UK to be a de facto "special" member of "a" CU and "a" single market (with continued full regulatory alignment) during the transition period without paying the full dues (but paying something for access???). This is the "vassal state" but that some (like JRM) have objected to as the UK will be rule takers but without any MEPs. On the other hand, this was the bit that the EU wasn't going to agree to (allowing all of the UK to be part of the CU and SM without the associated commitments to FoM and the normal levels of contributions): it was ok with letting NI be part of the CU & SM because of the GFA but the UK wide CU/SM + backstop was a UK invention.

The transition period gives the UK 21 months to negotiate a FTA of the sort that normally takes 5-10 years to agree. But it has the benefit of allowing the UK to sign its own trade deals because it is not formally part of the CU (but it can't really, because it has still committed to full regulatory alignment Confused)

The backstop was devised as an insurance policy to protect the GFA as no-one despite what the ERG claim - neither the UK nor the EU - want the "transitional" UK wide CU and SM to last forever. But if the UK is unable to negotiate a FTA with the EU that results in frictionless trade, but wants to sign a FTA with the EU anyway, then the backstop comes into force in NI and, according to the DUP but not the rest of those in NI , NI will be "ripped" from the UK because it will have to align itself with Ireland and accept a border in the Irish Sea.

The UK insists that the backstop must be time limited because a) it can be trusted and b) technology which doesn't exist anywhere on earth yet can be used to ensure frictionless borders. People aren't the issue per se with the backstop as the UK and NI already have the Common Travel Area (which is partly why Ireland, like the UK, is not part of the Schengen area). The problem is goods (and services?), where provenance can not be proven.

The Political Declaration is the non-legally binding bit of the WA which describes the sort of the relationship that the UK and EU anticipate will be agreed between the UK and the the EU during the transition period (that FTA that is supposed to to be agreed in just 21 months Confused) - but there is no legal obligation to do so.

Confused? You will be Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 23:47

EU's summary explaining the backstop
(sorry, link should work now)

europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6423_en.htm

Hazardswans · 29/01/2019 23:48
Flowers
RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 23:50

I'm off to bed and I think there is a fair chance, you'll need a new thread before I'm up and ready.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3493940-Westminstenders-Waiting-for-a-Valentines-Miracle?watched=1

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 23:53

Hi, woman
We're at the stage of "it's incredible arrogance, ignorance , stupidity, entitlement & disgraceful bullying of Ireland" so it's the HoC 🤯

Can't even say it's just the Tories, but they started this clusterfuck and are in charge of it,
so they get the blame imo

Corbyn dreamed of his allotment as usual and was his usual incompetent & unlikeable self
but he didn't call the ref or bugger up the negotiations.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 23:54

Resolution opposing hard Irish Border introduced in US Congress

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/resolution-opposing-hard-irish-border-introduced-in-us-congress-1.3775295

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 23:58

Ireland is an EU member and demands the backstop stays
The EU will not bully Ireland into dropping the backstop just to please Britain

So, either the UK keeps to the WA that May has already signed, or we have No Deal
The UK decides

TheABC · 29/01/2019 23:59

Hear that sound? It's the smacking chin of every same politician in Europe facepalming at the Brady amendment.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 00:02

I remember how the Irish American Lobby was so powerful during the Troubles,
making sure the US Congress and President supported Ireland and pressured Britain constantly over NI

Ireland doesn't just have the EU on its side:
it has the Irish Catholic diaspora in the USA, Australia, Canada etc all pushing their politicians to support Ireland.

The HoC doesn't realise what it is stirring up

SustainableOhYes · 30/01/2019 00:10

The Irish had experience of politics and organising due to British oppression. Unlike other immigrants when they got to America the Irish did very well in American politics.

Hazardswans · 30/01/2019 00:16

Good tabloid round up on tonight

-it's been made clear that MPs don't want no deal yet they also wont make that legally binding
-JC is meeting TM to discuss customs union he feels comfortable meeting her now since no deal has been symbolically rejected

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-vote-summary-7-key-13925303

SustainableOhYes · 30/01/2019 00:17

I would put the border in the Irish sea, court Northern leave Labour MPs and forget about the DUP.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 00:18

British politicians keep boasting how "britain punches above its weight" internationally.

Imo, Ireland does that far more effectively considering the relative sizes of the 2 countries' populations

Ireland beat Britain in gaining US political support during the Troubles
and in gaining rEU support during Brexit negotiations - it's striking and infuriates Kippers & Tories alike, but Ireland actually has the upper hand, so politely noone noticed until too late

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 00:19

Guy Verhofstadt@guyverhofstadt

Welcome the UK Parliament's decision to reject a no-deal & the hope of cross-party talks on future relationship.

We stand by Ireland & the Good Friday Agreement.
There is no majority to re-open or dilute the Withdrawal Agreement in the @Europarl_EN including the backstop.

PestymcPestFace · 30/01/2019 00:27

British politicians keep boasting how "Britain punches above its weight" internationally.

Hahahahah this is going to be as steep as learning curve as spending a month in rural SE Asia and discovering toilet paper is not a thing.

Apileofballyhoo · 30/01/2019 00:29

Northern Ireland would have no problem being effectively annexed off from the rest of the UK.

I think NI is very good at compromising for the sake of peace. I can't see how it would be any different this time. It's not like there's full alignment between NI and rUK in any case, and it would be to NI's economic advantage. I believe polls have shown a majority in NI are in favour of the backstop? And in favour of uniting with Ireland in the case of no deal? It seems to me the DUP are shooting the Union in the foot.

SustainableOhYes · 30/01/2019 00:33

It seems to me the DUP are shooting the Union in the foot.

It seems to me the DUP are shooting themselves and the Tory party in the foot.

Hazardswans · 30/01/2019 00:45

BlushGrin

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
Quietrebel · 30/01/2019 00:50

Wow hazard I'd never thought of brexit as some sort of weird collective sexual deviance!!

LonelyandTiredandLow · 30/01/2019 01:05

Quintrabel perhaps it's the dulcet tones of Mogg...? He's always struck me (no pun intended) on someone who'd enjoy corporal punishment.

CabbageCarrotOnionMayo · 30/01/2019 01:07

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47051031

LonelyandTiredandLow · 30/01/2019 01:07

Cabbage I was wondering if May would use this to delay with EU. Wonder if the quote "'All this talk of Brexit, hard borders, soft borders, has no bearing on our actions and the IRA won't be going anywhere. Our fight goes on.'" would have any bearing on that though, as they state it isn't relevant?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 01:08

New IRA - "awash with guns & cash" - plan almost daily attacks after Brexit Day

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6635723/Elderly-former-IRA-terrorists-coaxed-retirement-exploit-Brexit-tensions.html