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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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Sostenueto · 29/01/2019 22:24

Ah! Found you all!
Seems if you bully people and scare them enough they start to give in. (Well in the HoC, where courage is a dirty word)TM will get the lousy WA through after all.Sad I can't see any way that the EU will change ANYTHING! Are they all that dense in HoC?
We may end up falling out who knows? All amendments seem to be a waste of time tick, tock, tick, tock. Absolute farce, all of it! The EU will not budge! There is not one person in HoC I would vote for. I'm so disenchanted, disillusioned, disappointed, and genuinely embarrassed by our politicians, especially TM and JC. Our country will hang its head in shame!Angry

Eyewhisker · 29/01/2019 22:24

For the first time, I am truly losing hope. The Conservatives put party before country every time.

I can only hope that the EU does not give in. Britain partitioned Ireland against its will 100 years ago and cannot be allowed to do it again. What an absolute shambles and disgrace. Thank god for Varadkar and the EU who so far have been rock solid behind Ireland.

Lovelyflowerstoday · 29/01/2019 22:25

Sorry marking to read whole thread tom and see where new one is, can't keep up!

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 22:26

Nothing has changed
Over to EU
May's move to rewrite the Withdrawal Agreement

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
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borntobequiet · 29/01/2019 22:26

Scandaloso, that is interesting re Brendan Boyle.
www.irishnationalcaucus.org/congressional-friends-of-the-irish-national-caucus-114th-congress-2015-2017/

BrexitGarden · 29/01/2019 22:28

Ireland may accept a referendum trial then compensation to take on the willing people from NI, on condition the British make a town for those like the DUP who would find the offer intolerable.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 22:29

If all the Labour MPs who abstained or voted for the Brady amendment had voted against it, it would have been defeated by 313 votes to 312.

Theresa's Triumph....

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PerverseConverse · 29/01/2019 22:29

WHAT EXACTLY IS IN THE WA ANd WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BACKSTOP (other than an insurance policy to ensure no hard border) *AND WOULD THE BACKSTOP LAST INDEFINITELY?

*
I'm not actually shouting, just wanted to make my question stand out as posts sometimes get lost as the thread moves so quickly. Has taken me hand an hour to catch up this evening. Just trying to understand more about both the above. Not sure I've seen anything anywhere that gives a summary of the WA.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 22:30

May's Zombie Deal

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
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PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 22:31

WHAT EXACTLY IS IN THE WA AND WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BACKSTOP (other than an insurance policy to ensure no hard border) AND WOULD THE BACKSTOP LAST INDEFINITELY?

Answer Perverse

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 22:33

That's why the backstop:

The ERG / Atlantic bridge bunch want those lower standards like the US

  • they won't be eating US crap in the HoC or their stately homes
That's for the plebs

The EU would have to prevent that crap getting into their market, as the EU public won't stand for it.
So an NI border
Or a border in the Irish Sea

HerLadySheep · 29/01/2019 22:36

@PerverseConverse the WA agrees the terms of the "divorce" essentially, the actual negotiation on how we move forward hasn't even started.
The backstop is an agreement to stop a hard border by keeping NI in the customs union if we haven't agreed a trade deal by the end of the transition period, which is highly likely as it's a tricky negotiation and we're pretty rubbish as negotiating as evidenced by the current shower in charge of the country. And yes, in theory the backstop could be permanent hence why Parliament won't vote for the WA deal.

Focalpoint · 29/01/2019 22:36

@BrexitGarden laughing out loud at that suggestion - you mean like Ballymena stays British and the rest of the 6 counties joins the republic? Or you build a new town DUPville (?) somewhere on the mainland for the refugees of Ulster.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 22:36

Those who wish to avoid No Deal have to agree on ONE strategy and stop fighting each other

They also need a reality check and realise some options have gone:

  • The HoC won't vote for Revoke
  • PV is dead too
  • Extension just to decide is risky - time for more delusions & ERG plots

The choices at this stage :

  • The WA - with backstop
  • No Deal

Face up to it and choose

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 22:37

It was obviously going to happen Red. Whenever the US has said jump, Britain has been in the air before asking how high. Britain is a small country. Either we stay in the EU influence or we accept American hegemony.

Some of us have been warning that a trade deal with the US but no EU would involve lower standards for food. Some of us have been warning that US involvement in the British NHS would destroy it.

I hope these Brexiteers are proud of themselves. I can't believe this madness and I am still waiting to wake up.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 22:37

They want to blame all their incompentencies on the EU.

And it may work.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 22:38

And the Express.

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
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Sostenueto · 29/01/2019 22:41

This is just a nightmare (pinches herself). Yes it must be, can't feel a thing!..... Or is it cos I'm so numb through shock at the state of the HoC and the so-called self serving, party first politicians inside it?

Quietrebel · 29/01/2019 22:41

*If all the Labour MPs who abstained or voted for the Brady amendment had voted against it, it would have been defeated by 313 votes to 312.

Theresa's Triumph....*

Beyond angry with Labour. Too much indecision and passivity. Just as pathetic now as the Remain campaign.

PerverseConverse · 29/01/2019 22:42

Thanks, I'm just wondering what exactly is in the WA, apart from the backstop, which meant it was voted down. I feel like I'm missing something...
The backstop is as I thought but again was worried I was missing something.

GFA needs to be upheld.

I see no solution to any of this apart from staying in the EU which is what most of us want I think.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 22:43

I really dislike the UK government now, and that includes Labour in opposition.

They are two cheeks of the same arse. Corbyn is comatose. Or just a Marxist in waiting, I dunno.

I do not know what to think anymore.

Not much choice under FPTP is there?

Who would vote for Corbyn or May anymore? But what are we left with?

Sostenueto · 29/01/2019 22:43

Am off to bed. Bloody drivel on radio and TV. No one knows NOTHING!Angry

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 22:44

'I really dislike the UK government now, and that includes Labour in opposition'

Me too. I hope they all get the clap.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 22:44

Telegraph.

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Apileofballyhoo · 29/01/2019 22:44

The backstop says in the event the UK and EU haven't worked out a trade deal that allows an open border between NI/RoI when the end of transition period comes, NI stays in and UK goes out. But the DUP want NI to do everything the UK does, so TM got the EU to agree that the UK as a whole stays in the CU. But the CU has pesky rules so the ERG want out of that.

If the DUP weren't propping up the Tories it'd probably be fine.