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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:36

Well, if the UK PM signs an international agreement and then has to take it back,
any country - not just in the EU - is going to be very dubious about ever negotiating with her again

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:36

Yes, we did used to own parts of France
We demand it all back !

If you're going right back, it's not that simple. The Angevin empire owned large parts of both England and France. They were originally headquartered in Normandy. So France gets England??

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 21:36

I'm imagining her going to Junker and others and saying "We both know you aren't going to budge so let's just nod and smile for photos, catch up on gossip over a cup of tea and then I'll go back and say I tried my best"

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:37

mybrainhurtsalot yes, the backstop will not be need if the EU agree trading deal, so why wont they show good will and give a little on the backstop and lets get negotiating,

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:37

Hey, perhaps some of us can use that to get EU membership?!

TheNumberfaker · 29/01/2019 21:37

What happens next?
Is May physically going to Brussels? Will she accept what Tusk has already said about not changing the WA?

MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:37

So France gets England??

If that means we get to stay in the EU I’m up for it.

Ta1kinPeace · 29/01/2019 21:37

Oh FFS
I work for a day and an evening and 780 posts go past !

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 21:38

GhostofFrankGrimes isn't that all part of negotiating

No. In all negotiations both parties have to believe the other is approaching the negotiations in good faith and actually seekin to reach an agreement.

The UK repeatedly agrees something, then immediately briefs against that very same thing in the UK press. They agree positions with the other side and then essentially stick out their tongues and say ‘nah, we didn’t mean it’.

It’s impossible to run a negotiation like that. My clients would (and have been known to) Inform the other side that they clearly had no intention of making it work, and would walk out. The EU sadly hasn’t got that luxury.

MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:38

and give a little on the backstop

What do you imagine giving a little looks like?

Jsmith99 · 29/01/2019 21:38

It’s over. We’re fucked. May has decided to put party before country, Corbyn is incapable of leadership and we are going to crash out without a deal by accident.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:38

Descendants of the 100,000 Normans who invaded England in 1066 still own a disproportionate amount of the land & wealth

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:39

The back stop looks like a concession that’s why the brexiteers don’t like it. Their starting point afterall was, “we hold all the cards”.

Very much down to a colonialist mindset 'we are England, we are Tories, you will know your place, plebeian country'. I would laugh if it wasn't so bloody destructive.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:39

Hopefully the EU will just shrug and say Non. We did everything we could for you.

UK needs a clean sheet for future WTO and other Trade negotiations. They need to be careful here IMO. Trustworthy would be a good thing going forward.

Not looking too good at the moment for changing the goalposts. But anyway.

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:40

Double checking myself, Angevins were originally (mostly) headquartered in Anjou. Which is straightforwardly French nowadays.

bellinisurge · 29/01/2019 21:40

I can't believe they are all being so dim. Well, actually, scrap that.
She got them all to feel the love. She'll go to Brussels. They'll say "don't be so fecking stupid".
She'll come home and say "I tried"
Tick tick.
She'll say " ok Parliament, do you want Brexit or not".
They'll accept her deal. With the backstop.
That's my sad little prediction.

Bombardier25966 · 29/01/2019 21:40

I'm beginning to think a few riots wouldn't be the worst option. It will give us a valid reason to get these thugs off the streets for several years.

I don't want riots, not at all, but I'd rather that as a very short term issue than long term damage to all our lives in the form of no/ crap deal.

Tanith · 29/01/2019 21:40

The only people who gained anything tonight were the speculators, who no doubt made a killing on the pound plummeting.

Is that why some MPs think it was a good night?

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:41

It's at least as sane as anything going on in our HoC over the last few weeks.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 29/01/2019 21:41

Zero rational thought will have gone into future trade deals. That’s the next 10 years of clusterfuckery sorted.

MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:41

They'll accept her deal. With the backstop.

Who will shift from the last MV?

bellinisurge · 29/01/2019 21:41

My dh is the Angevin expert in our house Grin

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:41

SalrycLuxx surly you wouldn't tell the person you are buying a house from, what the most you were ready to pay ?

Bombardier25966 · 29/01/2019 21:42

@bellinisurge We've said the same thing, this is all a game to wind down the clock until the only option is the WA or no deal.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/01/2019 21:42

Is there any possibility at all of the sometimes (jokingly) suggested option that England and Wales should secede from the UK leaving an independent NI and an independent Scotland still in the EU - would seem to solve an awful lot of the issues Wink

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