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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

Westministenders Abbreviation FAQ

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Glitteryfrog · 29/01/2019 21:43

*What alternatives are there to the backstop/hard border issue?

If there was a good one, surely it would have already been thought of and agreed on?! What makes May think that one will suddenly appear?!*

Didn't the EU say the other day that they'd looked at all the borders in the world and no one used technology solution. (And if we managed to find one and proved it worked we were welcome to implement it.)

The whole thing is insane. Why do we want to fall out with the very countries which we want to arrange a trade deal with in a couple of weeks?

bellinisurge · 29/01/2019 21:45

Glad I am following other's thoughts @Bombardier25966 . I switched it off because it was making my dh feel sick (almost literally). He had lots to say about the Angevin empire though. Grin

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 21:45

So

When is Stormont going to sit again

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 21:46

Huh? I though you were talking about the backstop.

And no. I wouldn’t tell them my maximum. But I’d put in a real offer that had a chance of being taken seriously, because otherwise the seller would have every right to say ‘you’re not a serious person and I’m not going to waste my time with tou’.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:46

Hesta here's the problem:

  1. Comprehensive trade deals - the kind our economy needs - take 5-15 years to negotiate. They re horrendously complicated long legal documents

AND
2) the crunch point
WHY the Tories want rid of the backstop:

The only way to avoid a border is for NI to stay in the Single market and to have a Customs arrangement with the EU
That means the whole UK having a much closer trading relationship which would rule out the kind of trade deal Trump would allow

Tories want deals with the USA, so TTIP on steroids
Hence they want the Canada++ type of trade deal with the EU that would inevitably mean an NI border

The EU had proposed an NI-only backstop as a way out - which Tories also refuse

bellinisurge · 29/01/2019 21:47

Anyone seen "Passport to Pimlico"? Grin

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 21:48

Well I've traced DH's family back to the rulers of a large party of France so that works for me!

His 23rd great-grandfather and great-grandmother were Count of La Marche/Count of Angoulême and the Countess of Fougères!

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:48

Well to me the bottom line is... either bring back mayhem and dissident objection to a border and all that might bring. Or be pragmatic.

It is totally the UK's decision now. But I doubt they care much.

Many did not even realise the implications of GFA in the first place. Came back to bite them on the arse.

BrexitGarden · 29/01/2019 21:49

Anyone seen "Passport to Pimlico"?

Only the clip from Andrew Marrs BBC4 History series.

MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:49

You might not tell them your maximum at first but you may have to eventually say “this is my maximum, take it or leave it”. Which isn’t an analogy for Brexit because no deal doesn’t leave us in the same situation we are currently in.

We cannot win these negotiations because no deal hurts us more than it hurts them. That’s the bottom line.

golondrina · 29/01/2019 21:49

PMK

Mistigri · 29/01/2019 21:50

God I'm so bored of this now.

Who'd want to do a trade deal with the UK now? You could spend 2 years negotiating a deal that gets voted down by a bunch of narcoleptic backbenchers who haven't done a day's work in thirty years. Why the fuck would you bother?

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:51

I'd never heard of it bellini but it is now on my must-see list.

How in blazes can Britain think it is not tied to Europe?? Desk, head, bang, repeat until May accepts 'no' is a whole answer. Or 'non', sorry.

MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:51

Why the fuck would you bother?

I said this to my husband earlier - why would anyone want to even begin the agonising negotiation process with us, let alone believe that we would stick to anything we said.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 21:51

www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/jan/29/how-did-your-mp-vote-brady-cooper-amendments?CMP=twt_gu
Who voted for what.

abstained on brady
Ronnie Campbell Lab
Chope Con
Rosie Cooper Lab
Steven Crabb Con
Djanogly con
Flint lab
Greening con
Gyimah con
Sandbach con
Smeeth lab
Snell lab

Paul Flynn (lab) who is very old and known to have been ill for some time, didn't vote for any amendments. Looks like he may have been paired with Eleanor Lang (con)

It largely looks like there are now two Labour blocks. The ones who are softer and are driving the party and another one happy to uphold Brexit. From what I understand it's led by Caroline Flint.

If no three line whip were in place it would be interesting to know how others would jump.

The cons have three block, maybe 4 or even 5.
Government loyalists
Soft rebels
ERG moderates
ERG hardliners
Soft loyalists

I think going forward Corbyn is going to have more problems keeping the party in line than may might (and she has a tough job).

It's hard to see anything but the WA getting through on this break up. And that also make no deal a lot more likely too.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:52

Anyone who actually signs a deal and then tries to change the terms is not being serious
The UK is humiliating itself over this.

If we ever approve the WA - without changes - and Brexit,
we'll have problems later negotiating with other countries because they'll be reluctant to spend years negotiating if they suspect a future HoC won't approve what the PM signs.

Sometthing else to thank these Tory incompetents for:
poisoning the well for years to come

A nation's reputation for probity and reliability is built up over many decades
it can be ruined in a couple of years

As this govt seems determined to prove

CountessConstance · 29/01/2019 21:53

Is there a sea lion on this thread? Hmm

PestymcPestFace now that is an interesting question.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:54

I think Passport to Pimlico is the only Ealing comedy I haven't seen. I'd bet that the hapless crook musicians from the Ladykillers would make better Brexit negotiators than May and her pals.

Unescorted · 29/01/2019 21:55

Surely anyone negotiating a deal would know what their team/ government wanted before going into negotiations?
You would think so .... it does not appear to be the case here. Raab C Brexit didn't even listen to his civil servants enough to work out that Calais is a port. He is considered the brains of the outfit.

Passport to Pimlico fantastic film.... should be shown as a public service announcement to all MPs taking the job of Brexit "negotiator" ((TM) Easiest deal ever).

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:55

Henry Zeffman@hzeffman

7 Labour MPs voted for Brady: Ian Austin, Sir Kevin Barron, Jim Fitzpatrick, Roger Godsiff, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Graham Stringer

8 Tories voted against: Heidi Allen, Guto Bebb, Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve, Phillip Lee, Anne-Marie Morris, Anna Soubry and Sarah Wollaston

Loletta · 29/01/2019 21:55

She'll say " ok Parliament, do you want Brexit or not".
They'll accept her deal. With the backstop.
That's my sad little prediction.

I kind of hope so too
However, supporting the WA would be hard to stomach when you're an MP who's been on TV, radio, social media etc and described the WA as a terrible deal. So now it's not so terrible?? They would lose all credibility. I'm not sure that having berated the WA dramatically enough MPs will pivot to save us from No Deal.

Ta1kinPeace · 29/01/2019 21:56

I was at work today.

Even if there isn't a General Election or a Peoples Vote,
there are local council elections up and down the country on May 2nd

How many people will vote on local issues
and how many on national ones ?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:57

Their pride vs the country suffering unnecessarily for decades

Tough decision when you're a careerist with a massive ego

Peregrina · 29/01/2019 21:57

SalrycLuxx surly you wouldn't tell the person you are buying a house from, what the most you were ready to pay ?

Yes. Because if they then decide they'd like to hold out for a higher offer they know you will walk away. They can only get away with that if it's a sellers market.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:59

Only 8 Tories voted against Brady

Shameful and cowardly
Apparently the "soft rebels" were told they'd have a chance later to vote against No Deal and the naive fuckwits believed May