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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 21:02

It is a strong and stable sellotaped clear transparent in fact papier mache unicorn.

It's our very best gold star effort in our two week playschool effective Parliament debate

GhostofFrankGrimes · 29/01/2019 21:04

We seem to forget that the election - the one May was adamant she wasn’t going to call led to a lost majority and reliance on the DUP thus setting the course for where we are today. Basically without needing the DUP special status could have been granted to NI and the backstop would not even be on the agenda.

squareofthehypotepotenuse · 29/01/2019 21:04

What a night. What a nonsense.

Anyway, i’d just like to put my question out to the wiser heads on here once again......if TM comes back from EU without changes to backstop and needs to present her WA again - surely it is the Political Declaration that parliament needs to focus on, to ensure we don’t crash out with NoDeal?
Am I missing something about how any future trade agreement will need PARLIAMENTARY majority approval? So, it doesn’t need nailed down at the time of the WA, but it is for future parliament to make sure it votes only for a Trade Agreement it can stomach.
I asked my MP this question and he said that parliament DOES have oversight, but not enough in his opinion. Can the WA?PD be amended to ensure MORE oversight?
I’d love a Revoke, but as it’s looking unlikely - a WA and PD that may be blind at outset but is not left purely to a head banging Tory government to control seems like a good compromise?

Holidayshopping · 29/01/2019 21:05

Just reading the BBC live updates. It seems that TM is ‘pleased’ and JC is ‘pleased’ but why?!

Fuck all seems to have been resolved?!

Nobody wants no deal.
Nobody wants the WA.
People might want the WA IF there is an alternative to the backstop but as this is the sticking point that nobody can agree on, what’s that alternative going to be?

TM can’t just say, oh ‘Details Schmetails’ it’ll all be fine-leave it with me!

Or can she?!

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:05

wife May and all 27 leaders of the EU countries signed the Withdrawal Agreement last year, after 2 years of negotiations

Now the HoC voted to change the deal and make the EU bully Ireland into giving up the backstop
The EU is expected to refuse this and demand the WA stays

We're heading for No Deal
unless the HoC has an oiutbreak of common sense in a few weeks and decides to approve the WA after all

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:06

nicoala1 why don't you want the EU to cave in ? At least we would get a deal and move forward

Hazardswans · 29/01/2019 21:07

Fuck me. Fuck that. Fuck this. And fuck you. the tory manifesto and brexit strategy it really has been made clear.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:07

My fear is that all they see of us is the likes of JRM, BoJo, TM, Mark Francois and others of the same ilk

Don't worry. I look on them as some kind of exhibit in a natural history museum. They certainly don't represent any British people I know.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:07

Sally We don't have a Tory-Labour coalition
The blame is not equal
There is only one government and one set of ministers

The government governs and makes policy
If Labour had been in govt and done all this since 2016, they would be responsible
The Tories were, so they take the blame

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:08

I don't want the EU to cave because the backstop is more important than the Tories winning a shabby victory. Anyway, the EU is too savvy to cave.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 21:09

Is the UK now kind of like a weird creepy pervert?

Every time the EU say 'no' we seem to hear 'yes'.
Do we need to sit the Government down and show them that video about consent with the cup of tea?

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 21:10

I kind of felt for Oliver Letwin, it was like he said " I have just noticed my arse and elbow are separate entities and I am sorry".

No deal here we fecking come.

SillySallySingsSongs · 29/01/2019 21:10

BigChocFrenzy Fully aware how it works thanks. no need to be patronising

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:11

Scandaloso so you would rather we leave on a no deal, then to alter the backstop ?

BrexitGarden · 29/01/2019 21:12

Basically without needing the DUP special status could have been granted to NI and the backstop would not even be on the agenda.

It's the DUP at fault, if they were not so obstinate the border would be in the Irish sea.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:12

Yes, but I'm Irish.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 29/01/2019 21:12

My only hope now is that the EU hold strong, Ireland and the GFA protected.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:13

hesta 54,

What Scandaloso said.

Have you an alternative view? Let us know.

SillySallySingsSongs · 29/01/2019 21:13

Look, the bottom line is that UK totally expects the EU to blink and renegociate. They expect that and that is what they think will happen now.

There may be an element of that, talks of extention to implementation period, talks of add ons. Some of the 27 have indicated they will listen wiggle. Who knows. 🤷🏼‍♀️

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:13

Hesta I don't want the EU to bully Ireland into giving up the backstop, just to save the Tory party from humiliation.

It's a disgusting continuation of 8 shameful centuries of England abusing Ireland, with a new twist:
get someone else to do the abusing

May signed the Withdrawal Agreement
My word is my bond and I think when the PM signs something she should stop trying to get out of it.

No country could ever trust us when we sign something, if May gets away with this.

RosaPalma · 29/01/2019 21:15

Going back to blood donations, there is another real concern in a no deal scenario and that is organ donation. This is currently regulated under EU directives. A loved one died in Ireland a few years ago and their liver went to a woman in Birmingham. The current EU directive improves outcomes & saves lives. No deal Brexit is going to affect people in ways that we haven't even started to think about. I am so angry right now.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:16

It still blows my mind that in Nov 2017 Johnson, Davis et al willingly signed up for the backstop and now act like it's been thrust upon them as a great big surprise. Ultimate in gaslighting.

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:16

nicoala1 I cant believe that you would rather a no deal than hope the EU give a little going forward, unless a no deal will not affect you

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:16

The backstop is there because the British cannot be trusted. They did good on the GFA back in the day, but no more it seems.

Good luck to them in their Trade Deals. The walls have ears.

freezinguplands · 29/01/2019 21:16

This sums up my view.

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail
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