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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 21:17

I agree with BCF.

Unless they can genuinely come up with some 'alternative arrangement' that doesn't screw over Ireland.

We, as a country, need to act with integrity and if that means we face the terrible consequences of our own actions instead of foisting them on a smaller country (that we've shit all over many times before) then that's what it means.

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:18

nicoala1 Why cant the British be trusted ?

GD12 · 29/01/2019 21:18

I wish I had the money to get myself and my.family out of here. I terrified for my 1 year old.

Peregrina · 29/01/2019 21:19

I wish we could install Nicola Sturgeon as PM.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:19

The 2 countries with far right governments have wavered - said Ireland isn't as important as bigger countries like them and their economies -
but they've got into line again so far.

There are 27 countries to convince AND the European Parliament have flatly refused to pass a WA without the backstop

So how long do people want to wait, if they think the EU will blink ?
Wait until 11 pm on 29 March and then "whoops, didn't mean that"

I expect the EU will let May fly around a couple of weeks, then give her plenty of flowery, but legally meaningless, words to take home.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:19

They may as well have a neon sign above their heads flashing 'cannot be trusted' if they renege on the backstop. This will massively impact on future trade negotiations, and not in a positive way! Throughout this mess the politicians and press have behaved as though the entire world isn't watching how they conduct themselves. So odd.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:20

"Why can't the British be trusted" ?

Well, signing a Withdrawawl Agreement and then trying to change it is a good sign !

Random18 · 29/01/2019 21:20

I do not want the EU to give way at all.
The thought of a no deal is terrifying.
The ONLY positive thing about a no deal is that the Tory party would be wiped out.
But if EU give way then surely JRM or Johnson is the next PM and that really fills me with dread.

I still cling on to the small hope that TM and ERG fail andntje only option left is to revoke.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:21

hesta54,

I don't think I said I would rather a no deal anywhere. Can you clarify where I said that? Thanks.

The WA was totally agreed amongst the EU 27 and the UK.

But now it is not good enough for some. The backstop is the big issue.

How would you deal with that?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:21

If anyone signed a deal with me on say a house or a car, then tried to change the terms, I'd refuse

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 21:22

Raab is right actually being a test of the EU's good faith. If the European Union means anything at all, then it has to protect Ireland over the leaving UK.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:23

But if EU give way then surely JRM or Johnson is the next PM

The thought of Mogg as PM genuinely chills me.

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:23

Scandaloso they don't want to renege on the GFA, they have said we will not put up a hard border, why cant the EU trust us going forward to find a solution ?

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:24

Because they've proven time and again that they can't be trusted.

Hesta54 · 29/01/2019 21:25

Scandaloso in what way ?

Unescorted · 29/01/2019 21:25

My reading is that any no deal option brought before HoC will be voted down. Given a choice between the WA and the No Deal it will be the WA, even if it is as it is. However if it is a choice of the WA as it is and any other options (no deal or ExBrex) then a 2nd vote will come into play - even though this will extend A50. This may be me being an optimist.

WorriedMutha · 29/01/2019 21:26

I just want to chip in to say how much I appreciate you guys. It is reassuring to converse with the like minded and for the most part we are left alone by the leavers/trolls. I am working full time at the moment but the first thing I do at lunchtime is login for my Westminstenders update. Feeling depressed tonight and started on the last bottle of wine on the rack (the sort you win in a raffle that's probably better poured over a casserole - and you really shouldn't drink midweek when you work full time). We will prevail ultimately. Either up front or because the leavers will learn the hard way and we will be asking for readmission on bended knee.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 29/01/2019 21:26

They are reneging on the WA, the WA May said was the only option. The WA that honoured the GFA.

Otherwise read up on the last 800 years of British meddling in Irish affairs.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 21:27

Why can't the UK stick to what it signed rather than demanding the EU bully Ireland into giving up the backstop ?

because that bullying is what is actually meant by the EU "giving a little"

The backstop wouldn't be causing the Tories all this fury if they actually thought it would never be used
i.e. they obviously plan to negotiate a trade deal in transition that will mean there would be a trade border

If the pyromaniac next door keeps demanding you trust him and only get an insurance policy for 3 years, you just know what he plans to do in Year 4 !

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 21:27

I kind of felt for Oliver Letwin

Letwin is one of the few who realises where we are from what's been said today. There is no point in dressing it up or being ideologically rigid. It's at 'what's the least worst option, and where do I sign' time.

MPs need to start being honest with themselves over this

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MissMalice · 29/01/2019 21:27

They can’t trust us to find a solution because there literally isn’t one. Nobody can say they won’t put up a border - EU regs and WTO regs require a border or a backstop.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 21:28

Hesta, the UK have no solution. It is the Backstop or hard border.

Are you familiar with this?

At this stage it would be very difficult for anyone in any country to trust UK now. At the last minute they are trying to wriggle out of the backstop. It was all agreed.

MyNameIsArthur · 29/01/2019 21:28

If anyone signed a deal with me on say a house or a car, then tried to change the terms, I'd refuse

When the deal was agreed by TM and the EU negotiating team, surely everyone at the table knew this would be conditional on the UK parliament then agreeing the deal as well as the EU27 then agreeing the deal?

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 21:28

Well in Nov 17 they agreed to the backstop now a few months later they're all outraged by the backstop. Even though they all signed their name. Willingly. And that's without starting on the way the govt has looked the other way at all the referendum illegalities that have emerged.

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 21:29

We agreed the backstop 13 or 14 months ago. Now we want to change it.
WTF
We are not trustworthy.

I'd rather stay, BUT if it is to be leave, then we need to do so sensibly with an agreement. AND not try to feck Ireland over.

The EU have been very consistent and patient, they have allowed us to be demanding and tweaked stuff to suit our purposes.
They have other things to do, apart from indulge us.

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