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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

Westministenders Abbreviation FAQ

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JSmitty · 29/01/2019 18:14

So it turns out that Mrs May is Mrs Doyle:

EU: 'We will not reopen negotiations.'
PM: 'Ah, yer will. Yerwillyerwillyerwillyerwill....'

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 18:15

Vote Brady, get Malthouse I think is what is happening atm.

Vote Phoenix, get Unicorn.

GD12 · 29/01/2019 18:16

No, the EU is not bluffing, the UK is shambolic.

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 18:17

When North Korea can troll you, you really need to examine your life choices ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/29/edible_clothes/

As the UK continues to fret over dire warnings of supermarket shelves emptying as a side effect of Brexit, North Korea has a solution for the alleged impending crisis.

Assuming trade deals will be as straightforward as politicos have promised, containers full of delicious edible clothes could be headed to Blighty, filling both the stock of grocers and clothiers at a stroke

(contd)

Greensleeves · 29/01/2019 18:17

I don't think the MPs absent from the chamber are skiving (for a change), I imagine there are frantic negotiations going on behind the scenes as people try to gauge who is voting for what and decide how to position themselves.

I've got a horrible feeling the Brady/Malthouse thing is going to prevail. Hope not though.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 18:17

RESULTS: COOPER-BOLES - 8PM ISH. BRADY - 8.30 - 8.45PM ISH

Tony Connelly @

Tony Connelly @tconnellyRTE
A senior EU source has told @rtenews that during a phone call at 12pm Brussels time Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told Theresa May there would be no reopening of the Irish backstop or the Withdrawal Agreement.

The source said that Mr Juncker conveyed to Mrs May that it would be fruitless for her to come to Brussels on the basis of an attempt to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement.

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Missbel · 29/01/2019 18:19

BigChocFrenzy I find it slightly unnerving that David T Davies (who went to Holyhead with Liz S R and who is a climate change denier) and my own MP, Chris Davies who is a keen Brexiteer, are both willing to challenge self ID. I thought that Plaid Liz was excellent though...

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 18:19

I can't work it out - is the EU bluffing on not reopening the WA?

If the idea is that the EU will not let us No Deal, this is nonsense. They will.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 18:19

Gateway drug 🤨 peddled by the 1922 for the ERG hard smack
Then it's Gotcha

This is the time for any Tories who are serious about avoiding No Deal to step up and vote NO to Brady
stop waiting for the "right moment"
it's here

For once, put country before party and career and subsidised bars

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 18:20

Will we get rid of Angela Rayner who I have an irrational dislike of?

It's not irrational. She's a pain in the arse.

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 18:20

I wonder about the EU position TBH.

I really hope they hold the line, but I am not sure that they will swat away some simple things that might be "seen" as victory for TM.

Hopefully they will stand firm, because that is the only lesson the Government will eventually understand. And they also have to support the ROI aswell. Well they said they would anyway.

Anyway, only 59 days to go. We live in interesting times.

Weezol · 29/01/2019 18:21

Thanks BiglyBadgers that was exactly the kind of thing I was after. Need to explain it to someone who is allegedly an adult in simple, relevant terms.

prettybird · 29/01/2019 18:22

Remember that Labour are also one short, with Fiona Onasanya having been sentenced for her motoring offence.

DangermousesSidekick · 29/01/2019 18:23

The EU has repeatedly and insistently said that they will categorically not renegotiate the WA.

Please someone tell me that Theresa May in her insistence that they will has actually got a cunning plan up her sleeve?

Because otherwise I am forced to believe that UK incompetence - the usual habit of UK politicians of saying one thing one day and doing something different the next day - is blinding our wondrous leaders to the fact that EU people, on the whole, mean what they say and say what they mean.

As a pp said, god help us all now. Because no one else will.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 18:24

Beth Rigby @BethRigby
Letwin: If No Deal materialises “It will be the first time when we have consciously taken a risk on behalf of our nation, & terrible things have happened to real people in our nation because of that risk, we will not be able to argue that it was someone else's fault”

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1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 18:24

{Juncker told May on the phone just before she went into the HoC that the WA would not be renegotiated.}
Maybe she should have put it on speakerphone at the start of this afternoons session.

Minimammoth · 29/01/2019 18:26

At the moment neither party are electable in my opinion. A new low has been reached.

BiglyBadgers · 29/01/2019 18:26

I'm going to put this out here, but maybe it's better for the Boles/Malthouse business to get through now. May will take it to EU27, they will say "no way buster" and then we have to acknowledge that we are doing no deal with enough time for someone to still maybe do something about it. If we put it off than we're just letting the clock tick while they bicker.

Part of me just thinks that if the ERG are so keen to go demand renegotiation of the backstop then they can go ask the EU and when the answer is no then they can all just fuck off and we can move on.

(I know, as I write this I am thinking "if only it would be so simple")

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 18:26

red I can only say public opinion here - according to polls - is overwhelmingly against concessions now to the UK
Merkel would get hell for it.
She sounded totally pissed off at the UK, so imo she'd oppose it.

The idea of a more than a handful bullying Ireland to save the British Tory party - which is how it would be seen here - is insane.
The other 11 small countries in the EU would lose all faith it couldn't happen to them

Even the Irish budget estimates show no Deal would be an economic hit, but not disaster - and they are the E27 country most affected

The only chance imo would be if Ireland agreed willingly, i.e. were offered something they genuinely wanted in return, that is within the GFA
e.g.
Guranteed border polls every 7 years starting 2020
With guarantees of 20 years continuation of GB subsidy in the event of a vote for United Ireland

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 18:28

Hannah Al-Othman @HannahAlOthman
Labour source saying 15-16 frontbench MPs are expected to abstain in Cooper amendment vote. It’s going to be an interesting night...

Its a three line whip to support the Cooper-Boles Amendment, yet 15 - 16 MPs are going to abstain???!!

Without consequence no doubt.

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BiglyBadgers · 29/01/2019 18:29

My pleasure Weezol Grin

nicoala1 · 29/01/2019 18:30

I posted this in an earlier thread.

Mandatory listening and viewing IMO. What an interview! Please watch and listen. It is as valid today as the day the interview happened.

www.channel4.com/news/dutch-mep-sophie-in-t-veld-uks-influence-in-europe-has-faded-since-brexit-vote

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 18:30

Many NI folk would be so worried / pissed off by the border returning that Vote 1 might do it !

WHich would of course solve the GB backstop problem,
but create a problem for Ireland re integrating the 29% of NI who voted DUPES in 2017

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 18:32

The noisy riff raff are back. MPs - Shut-up and listen.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 18:33

May is becoming "clearer" every month:

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail