To ask why would anyone want no deal?

[guinea36]

Watching Sunday morning political shows. A few politicians suggesting they would prefer no deal if necessary. These people are presumably intelligent and educated
Yet they believe - although I struggle to see it - that ultimately it will be better for the country economically in the long run. Just wondering what the theory is behind this belief?

OK. The plastic gnomes have a 'dangly bit' and a child swallows it and sadly dies.
If you consider that a plastic gnome is 'designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age' then you may have a point. If you consider that it's a garden ornament then please suggest what certification would be required.

But assuming it's a toy and it requires testing and CE marking etc, the very most that would be required is for me to have an agent in the EU who took care of that for me. Again, why does that require a trade deal?

You are obviously out to be obtuse and 'economical with facts' relating to the whole process, much like JRM and Patrick Minford.
I'm bored with your posts now.

You are obviously out to be obtuse and 'economical with facts' relating to the whole process, much like JRM and Patrick Minford.

So when somebody doesn't agree with your misunderstandings they're being "obtuse and 'economical with facts'"?

Hmm, haven't you just done something that you accuse Leavers of doing?

So no idea what certification I'd need for my gnomes then? There's not a European Gnome Directive I don't gnow about?

*know, not gnow

Right so for the record we can buy and sell stuff to the EU if it complies with EU regulations, which we currently abide by and there is no reason to stop doing so. If we leave with no deal all reciprocal trade deals cease. This does not mean we have to stop with the buying and selling but if we revert to WTO rules we have to apply those tariffs ? Until we reach other reciprocal agreements/deals ? Is that correct ?

In the event of no deal there will be delays due to what exactly ? And where ? Do the French for instance need to check goods leaving the EU or goods entering the EU in the case of no deal ? Where the UK is a third country.

So no idea what certification I'd need for my gnomes then?

You might need a CE mark, but if you were actually involved in trade (rather than just telling us how easy it is) you would probably know this.

Apologies Fish that was unnecessarily snippy. But your gnomes will have a very small profit margin. Who's paying for the agent and any tariffs?

Note that while theoretically the importer pays the tariff, in practice they may well expect to he compensated for this by the seller. (We are seeing this with our EU customers).

You're missing the point. I fully understand all the issues with tariffs, costs, certification, delays etc., it's undoubtedly shit.

The only issue I was addressing is the repeated assertion that it's impossible to do any business at all without a trade deal.

In can't recall anyone saying its impossible, just vastly more difficult and costly, and will be incredibly detrimental to UK exporters.

it's impossible to do any business at all without a trade deal.

I don't see people saying that.

In practice, I think your gnome example is a very good example of the sort of trade that might well not happen at all outside the single market, because the cost of making customs declarations and appointing agents would eat up what would be a very slender margin.

In can't recall anyone saying its impossible

1tisILeClerc, across various threads, including this.

Once the tariff on gnomes has been applied, the agent/consultant you'll have to hire to make sure you're compliant is paid, and the van driver has even paid for the two day wait... I'm willing to bet Chinese gnomes will be cheaper. That or your profit margin is gone.

In practice, I think your gnome example is a very good example of the sort of trade that might well not happen at all outside the single market, because the cost of making customs declarations and appointing agents would eat up what would be a very slender margin.

It wasn't a suggestion for the future trade direction of the UK, it was just to demonstrate that you don't need a trade agreement to do business. It's obviously vastly better to trade on preferential terms, and that's what a trade agreement is, but that doesn't make it impossible to do business without one. Conforming to another country's regulatory requirements certainly doesn't make it impossible to do business without a trade deal.

I suspect products like cars, medical supplies, medicines, and other things with a huge market are slightly different to garden ornaments.

Once the tariff on gnomes has been applied, the agent/consultant you'll have to hire to make sure you're compliant is paid, and the van driver has even paid for the two day wait... I'm willing to bet Chinese gnomes will be cheaper. That or your profit margin is gone.

Obviously if they weren't urgent gnomes I'd probably use a forwarder to send my 4 pallets as a LCL (less than container load) through Rotterdam or something. Dead cheap. And my brother in Ireland could be my EU address to sort the compliance out. So that's good. Not that there is an EU Gnome Directive anyway, so no need to worry about that.

I've no idea what the EU tariff on plastic garden ornaments is.

Elclerc has not said that its impossible, just that certain types of trade will be vastly impaired.

For example a "no deal" means that UK food argi exports have to get approval as a third. party exporters and this may take months.

There are lots of barriers that impair trade flows and make things significantly harder, if even impossible over the short term.

You keep saying that it's possible to trade without a trade deal, as if anyone is claiming the opposite. It's such an obvious point that it doesn't even need to be argued.

The point is that some trade will become more difficult, and some won't happen at all, either because it will become completely uneconomic (eg lamb exports to the EU) or because customers won't accept longer delivery timescales (eg some JIT trade).

If you take the example of one of my employer's business units ... sure they'll keep exporting to EU customers, if those customers are prepared to wait an estimated 10 days for delivery (during which we'll be funding the additional inventory) and if there is any margin left after we've paid the import tariff (that the customer refuses to pay because he can take his business to an EU competitor if we won't cover it). And that's not even a business unit that's currently working to JIT schedules.

I suspect products like cars, medical supplies, medicines, and other things with a huge market are slightly different to garden ornaments.

They are, and the companies involved in that will know their own sectors.

Cars for example would need EU type-approval, the same as today. EU type-approval doesn't rely on us having a trade deal with the EU.

You keep saying that it's possible to trade without a trade deal, as if anyone is claiming the opposite. It's such an obvious point that it doesn't even need to be argued.

It was an ongoing conversation with 1tisILeClerc, who had been claiming exactly that.

For example:

Me: Do you think we need a trade deal in place to buy something from someone in another country?

1tisILeClerc. Of course.

Dyson obviously value a trade deal, just announced they are moving from UK to Singapore.
Hopefully the RnD in Wiltshire won't be affected.

Apparently nothing to do with brexit, they wish to "future proof" the company.

But hardly a glowing endorsement of Global Britain.

I've no idea what the EU tariff on plastic garden ornaments is.

6.5%, assuming they're plastic gnomes

EU type-approval doesn't rely on us having a trade deal with the EU.

It kind of does actually, because UK-delivered type approval will no longer be valid after 29/3. Under our current deal (EU membership) we can deliver type approval for vehicles and those vehicles can be sold anywhere in Europe. Under no deal, not only can we no longer deliver type approval, but existing U.K. type approval must be replaced with type approval from an EU country.

"Do you think we need a trade deal in place to buy something from someone in another country?"

yes the WTO is a "trade deal", its an agreement on trade standards and tariffs.

Saying that its possible without is ludicrous.