To ask why would anyone want no deal?

[guinea36]

Watching Sunday morning political shows. A few politicians suggesting they would prefer no deal if necessary. These people are presumably intelligent and educated
Yet they believe - although I struggle to see it - that ultimately it will be better for the country economically in the long run. Just wondering what the theory is behind this belief?

{ the EU negatively affects poorer countries, in Africa for instance. A long term goal I would like to see is for us to encourage industry and agriculture in African countries, so improving the lot of the population there and reducing the likelihood of people wanting to migrate north.}
Have you heard of China?
The one that is 'lending' Billions to African countries and others around the South China Sea.
in the complicated mess that this world is, they are 'buying influence' in a similar but different way that Colonial Europe did in the past.
Do you think Mrs May was doing her 'turkey' dance for nothing when she went over? We might get a £4 Billion trade deal from it, we might not, but the Chinese will be getting a hell of a lot more and will be setting the rules.

the way the EU negatively affects poorer countries, in Africa for instance

You mean, by allowing most African countries to trade tariff and quota free under the Everything But Arms programme?

You are laughably uninformed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everythingbutt_Arms

So many sound bits come out of the remainers it's untrue.

Could you list a few examples of such sound bites double?

The only sound bites I’ve seen are aspirational comments from Leavers which they cannot embellish on when asked.

why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers?

You mean, like Don't Leave, and in particular Don't Leave with No Deal?

So John Bolton, Donald Trump's NSA, is a fan of Brexit too - why is this not remotely surprising? If you're a Brexiter, doesn't this make you stop and wonder why?

"Trump isn't the only senior White House official rooting for Brexit. National security adviser John Bolton talks regularly by phone with his Brexiteer friends inside Theresa May's imploding government — Cabinet ministers Liam Fox and Chris Grayling — according to a May government source."

"What they're saying: "John is a strong believer in Brexit and has been encouraging the Brexiteers to keep it up," the source told me."

www.axios.com/john-bolton-brexit-trump-ed7a60ce-3ac1-4b86-b443-801146607b01.html

I voted to leave was that I was very unhappy about the way the EU negatively affects poorer countries, in Africa for instance.

Great Britain (part of a very elite club) fucked Africa royally for centuries, up to and including the present. If you think that Great Britain without the EU is going to do anything to actually improve the lives of African people, you don't know your history.

It would have been better to campaign heavily for better treatment for African nations inside the EU. Because the GPD of the whole of Africa is tiny. Sub-Saharan African GDP, minus SA is minuscule. So giving favorable terms would be painless. And result in reduced migration, more stable governments, further reductions in population growth, all great.

But if you think Gove, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Boris care about Africa... Rees-Mogg could go back in a time machine to the days of the Boer War and not need to change anything about himself to 'pass'.

I wonder whether the people who say they want "No Deal" think it was all done when we voted, and see, nothing bad happened, and all the bad things they told us would happen aren't happening, and we'll be fine.

I also wonder if it is because our lives are regulated and there are gazillions of safety regulation and someone is always there to pick up the shit and we have completely forgotten that there are dangerous things no one can fix for you.

It makes no sense for me. I cannot for the life of me comprehend how someone would actively wish economic catastrophe and self inflict such risks on their country and themselves.

why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers?

I've said this on umpteen threads now, but many remainers think that staying in the single market and customs union is, while considerably inferior to EU membership, an acceptable compromise. It was the obvious solution to a referendum that had such a narrow majority to leave as it would have fulfilled leaving the EU but avoided too much economic fall-out. And no, the ballot paper did not mention in any way how we should leave the EU, so there would be no recourse for any leave voters claiming that wasn't what they voted for.

The WA is a constructive idea this Remainer is prepared to accept if it avoids No Deal.

why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers

I'm behind the WA.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a great deal or anything, but if we're going to honour the result of the ref, while avoiding the abject self harm of no deal, it's as good as we're going to get.

Seems a lot of remainers are in favour of the WA.

Which of course is a compromised solution

Which of course is a compromised solution

Of course it is. It was always going to be, which is why they voted remain in the first place.

But yes, if we must leave the EU, then let's be practical, realistic and grown up about it.

I know.

Not all of the leave voters, or its leaders are like this, but a significant minority are very vocal, and very disruptive about it not being what they voted for.

The real problem is that the WA, and any other agreement are going to start bringing Brexit into reality. After that they can't claim that it will bring untold benefits to the UK, and if it goes wrong they don't want to take responsibility.

{why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers?}
Well I certainly have put forward a couple of ideas.
yesterday or day before a MASSIVE effort to boost the NHS by building training facilities with accommodation to take in DOUBLE what the UK needs so that not only will the UK have sufficient, it can do it's bit in training medics to go around the world.
Accommodation would give employment to builders, and would be units suitable for single trainees and larger 'flats' for couples with say 1 child.
Part of the funding could come from the foreign aid budget (in that we would be sending medics out for their final year 'in the wild' experience and builders could perhaps be retrainees from the about to be defunct car assembly businesses.
Is that enough of an outline?

Another Remainer who would take May's WA as the least worse option.
While frothing at the mouth and hurling insults at leavers, obv, because I just can't help myself.

Yes I'm prepared to accept the WA too. It's a compromise. If we have to leave, and Parliament isn't prepared to revoke A50, then I'd take that. I don't understand what the issue Labour has with it. It keeps us in a customs union and avoids a hard border. I know what the DUP and hard Brexiteers problem is with it. Their reasons are fundamentalist, nationalist and hard right wing reasons. I don't care about them.

The WA isn't a 'fixed' thing anyway.
It is essentially a roadmap, which all but a couple of items (citizens rights and the exit bill and one other I keep forgetting) is defined. Through negotiation during the transition period the departure can be steered towards 'hard' or 'soft'.
In the meantime, there would be no need to panic or disk shortages or deaths.
What's not to like, apart from a principle that it probably wasn't written by the UK?

Dominic lawson had article in mail today saying barnier said back in 2016.

If we make the deal so bad they want to give up and stop brexit.. My job is done 🙄.

As someone who voted to Leave, I too came round to accepting the WA and had hoped the HoC would vote it through. If MN Brexit threads are anything to go by - as more from both ref sides are accepting that the WA is the way to go - the politicians will do too.

Sorry, what does WA stand for?

WA=Withdrawal Agreement

Of course, thank you. Hopefully the politicians will come to their senses and agree to it. They won't get another offer from the EU.

Withdrawal Agreement.
It is essentially a massive list (585 pages) of all the 'stuff' the UK and EU have to sort out when the UK leaves.
Tyere are a couple of things already defined, but most of it is discussion topics. There are after all 40+ years of treaties to unravel and rewrite.
The UK gov SHOULD have written it, but they spent a long time with silly red lines that would not be acceptable to the EU. It is designed to be 'harsh' to make the UK think what it is doing and actually negotiate properly. Instead the HoC rejected it, as has almost all MPs. No one has come up with a workable alternative though.
The EU27 have all agreed their side of the WA and so has Theresa, but Theresa has to convince the cabinet and HoC.

Dead against the WA, its a blind brexit, we ve no idea what we will end up with, stuck in a CU or EFTA + , no one knows.

Leave promised such a lot back in 2016 and they must be made to stand by their words.

May needs to either revoke or scrap her red lines, extend & renegotiate a totally different deal.