To ask why would anyone want no deal?

[guinea36]

Watching Sunday morning political shows. A few politicians suggesting they would prefer no deal if necessary. These people are presumably intelligent and educated
Yet they believe - although I struggle to see it - that ultimately it will be better for the country economically in the long run. Just wondering what the theory is behind this belief?

We want our own UK trade deals with the rest of the world without being inside the EU trading bloc which has protectionist tariff walls around it

That wasn’t my question though - wanting to have our own free trade deals is pointless if they are on worse terms than we have now.

What trade deals do we want that we can’t have now?

@ThereWillBeAdequateFood Erm no. WTO tariffs are 10% for cars and car parts (not honestly sure if JCB comes under car parts and I can’t be arsed googling it).

But you thought you'd disagree with me anyway, despite the fact you've got no knowledge of the subject and hadn't checked?

@Buteo If JCB sell into the EU on WTO terms, it pays the import tariffs set by the EU on its WTO schedules.

The EU tariff on most, if not all, of JCB's products is 0%.

The EU tariff on most, if not all, of JCB's products is 0%.

The EU’s import tariff on its WTO schedule is 0%?

@millyonth We want our own UK trade deals with the rest of the world without being inside the EU trading bloc which has protectionist tariff walls around it

Which countries in particular do we want to do a trade deal with that we haven't already got a trade deal with through the EU?

Are there countries who we want to do deals with who could possibly replace the excellent deals we already have with the EU and their trading partners which we'd be giving up?

If the no-dealers' line is that we can crash out and still continue to trade with the EU and their partners on WTO terms, then why can't we continue to deal with these other countries on WTO terms, without having to make our own trade deals with them?

I can't see the point of walking away from trade deals with the most prosperous third of the world economy in order that we can pursue possible future trade deals with the least prosperous third. How does that make sense?

The EU’s import tariff on its WTO schedule is 0%?

The EU's import tariff for most powered construction and agricultural equipment (and parts for them) is 0%.

The EU is the world's largest free trade zone, for those members within the EU. But it is a protectionist organisation, in the same way the USA is

So are you saying that you want free trade deals with everyone but the EU and the USA? LOL

Of course the EU is a 'protectionist bubble', it is attempting to raise the quality of life for all.
If you wanted true 'free market economy' then it will be a race to the bottom with workers rights and life expectancy on a par with Bangladesh. At least the EU is attempting to pull people upwards rather than push down.
It is difficult because the world is a constantly evolving 'system' and employers look to exploit workers for profit wherever possible, as has always been the case. There are some examples, such as Salt's Mill in Yorkshire where a Quaker family saw good treatment of the workers as a good thing. Manufacturing, especially lower skilled, has gone to the far East as they have poor workers rights. If one country raises the standards, the 'shabbier' companies will shift the work to a lower standard country.
Why do you think Dyson assembles in the Far East?

LeClerc Dyson is building his electric car in Singapore. Singapore has very high salaries. He is building it there for a number of reasons, one being that electric cars are covered by Singapore's free trade deal with China.
uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-dyson-singapore-explainer/why-did-dyson-pick-singapore-to-build-its-electric-car-idUKKCN1MY1EU

Some Singapore salaries are high.
Worker salaries are not, it is a very two tier system.

{LeClerc Dyson is building his electric car in Singapore.}
Not a great help for the UK economy then.
Like all the garments made in Bangladesh and so many other commodities.
The UK is going to have to think of realistic ways to make a lot of money, replacing the manufacturing that is going. Rather than 'nitpicking' try thinking what the UK car workers, maybe best part of 2 million of them when you consider the feeder factories, are going to do, possibly from March 30th.

Which protectionist walls are you planning on removing?

See this is the thing, arguments against protectionism seem to forget its there for a reason.

So are you saying that you want free trade deals with everyone but the EU and the USA? LOL

Errr, No... quite the opposite. The point I was trying to make, and obviously failing, was that with the EU the trade deals that are made are made in the interests of 28 nations. Each and every one has it's own product to protect, and I am not saying that that is a bad thing, it is just that with so many national interests at stake, deals are very difficult to get past the 28.

The UK, for example, doesn't have to worry about protecting it's oranges or lemons, or olive oil, or whatever, as we don't produce that and therefore can import it from elsewhere possibly cheaper.

That is all, I am not a Brexiteer, but I am trying like hell to be optimistic about the whole shit show.

The UK, for example, doesn't have to worry about protecting it's oranges or lemons, or olive oil, or whatever, as we don't produce that and therefore can import it from elsewhere possibly cheaper.

Eh? How can we import those things cheaper than we currently do from the worlds largest trading bloc, which also happens to be on our doorstep?

"Eh? How can we import those things cheaper than we currently do from the worlds largest trading bloc, which also happens to be on our doorstep?"

I think they are alluding to the fact that we would be able to by these products cheaper at the prices charged by farmers in the developing world.

Unfortunately the EU has trade deals covering agri produce from a whole host of these countries, and we currently don't pay tariffs on them anyway.

The primary way to import cheaper food is by lowering the quality. It is not tariffs that creates a barrier to food imports in the EU, it is regulatory barriers. We don't have a food-based trading arrangement with the US because the EU does not permit some of the practices used in the US agri industry involving chemicals.

Certain industries are protected, eg sugar beet. So there are import tariffs on Tate and Lyke who choose to use sugar cane from the Caribbean. They could choose to make their product from beet instead like Silver Spoon do. I don't know enough about sugar production to know why they don't.

The EU tariff on most, if not all, of JCB's products is 0%.

Tariffs are not the only burden though - JCB products won't have to face sanitary inspections or have to compete for limited tariff quotas or lose access entirely, as other industries will face in the event of No Deal.

It is not tariffs that creates a barrier to food imports in the EU, it is regulatory barriers.

And geography.

I think it's a bit rich for remainers to suggest that leavers are being selective with their suggestions about how things might pan out after we leave the EU.

The catastrophizing of the whole situation from remainers is just ridiculous.
So many sound bits come out of the remainers it's untrue.

Rather than sneering at any of the leavers ideas suggesting we should give pros and cons why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers?

With reference to the EU's protectionist practices, one of the reasons I voted to leave was that I was very unhappy about the way the EU negatively affects poorer countries, in Africa for instance. A long term goal I would like to see is for us to encourage industry and agriculture in African countries, so improving the lot of the population there and reducing the likelihood of people wanting to migrate north.

@Doubletrouble99 , while your concerns about trade with countries in Africa are laudable, I'm not sure how our leaving the E.U. solves that.

Going back to the first point, I think it is simply because many do not understand what no deal means. I keep on hearing analogies to trading your old car in at the garage, not agreeing to the price, and walking away. Rather, it is like not agreeing to the price, and therefore deciding to smash your car up on the forecourt and walking ok. The garage loses out on the deal and have to clear up the mess, but you've smashed your car up and walked away with nothing.

why don't we have some constructive ideas from remainers?

Clearly the best idea is to remain in the EU. However, it should have been clear from the closeness of the original referendum and the subsequent General Election that the solution either needs to be stay in the EU, but do something to help leavers (investments outside London, investments in youth training schemes, housebuilding investments to help young families, etc), or to leave the EU, but remain as closely tied as possible.

The majority has not and has never been for a hard no-deal Brexit.

I don't need to give constructive ideas. I don't care what we do as long as we avoid no deal. I'll happily accept WA if that avoids it.

JCB products won't have to face sanitary inspections or have to compete for limited tariff quotas or lose access entirely, as other industries will face in the event of No Deal.

Exactly, it's a bit rich for the boss of JCB to push for Brexit when even in a worse-case scenario his business is one of the few exporters to the EU who won't be negatively impacted.

" I voted to leave was that I was very unhappy about the way the EU negatively affects poorer countries, in Africa for instance. "

Spurious and uniformed.

Many countries in Africa, and the South African Customs Union have free trade agreements with the EU which mean that agri products come in tariff free. They have to be up to quality standards though. Africans aren't migrating north because of lack of trade.

Unless we follow the Minford model we are still going to have 0 barriers to import. Which of course leads to the destruction of most of the UK agricultural and manufacturing industry.

Fishes and of course, it's not like Bamford might have an axe to grind or anything?

Bulldozer group JCB was yesterday fined £22m after the European Commission ruled that the company had seriously violated EU competition law.

Competition commissioner Mario Monti, who set the fine, one of the 10 largest ever imposed, said: "The punishment is justified by the gravity and duration of the infringement. JCB engaged in restrictive distribution practices."

www.theguardian.com/business/2000/dec/22/6

The EU gives tariff-free access for 57% of products and reduced rates for most of the rest.