Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: At the point of collapse?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2019 23:30

May is in trouble. The Tory Party are in trouble.

Brexit is not in trouble, but we certainly are.

May's problem is she has no way forward.

One the one hand, the ERG will not accept anything to soften Brexit. That's an extension or Norway. Or a second ref. The story tonight emerging of Rees-Mogg as 'peacemaker' is quite the opposite. Its a thinly veiled threat saying if you do not please the ERG we will split and no longer support the PM. They will quiet simply threaten to collapse the government if May decides on that course. Their gamble will be that with the Tories ahead in the polls, they can get enough seats to enable no deal or cause enough chaos to cause accidental no deal. Thus forcing out One Nation Tories from the party.

One the other hand if May does not soften Brexit, rumour has it that 20 ministers including several cabinet, will walk. There is talk of cabinet ministers supporting a second ref and of others supporting Nick Boles proposals and demanding a free vote on the matter.

May on the other hand seemed determined to pursue plan A which is now plan B, in the form of the WA. In order to do this her plan was go for cross party talks and a compromise. The trouble is May doesn't understand what the word compromise means, because... Well see above about the two factions within the Tory Party presenting a bit of an issue to that. She felt the WA was the only way to stop the party split / stop the government collasping.

In addition to this we have Labour trying to avoid a split. Corbyn had his ridiculous starting point to cross party talks being completely impossible for May. You can't take no deal off the table if it is the table. Corbyn was essentially asking directly for a revocation or extension to A50 clause. May could not agree to that because... Well see above.

Corbyn is now talking about whipping against Grieve's amendment which sort to create a cross party consensus. Bizarrely grieves suggestion seemed to be for a minority rather than majority which rather undermined it, by Corbyn's real motivation is about his power, preventing a centre consensus and possible splits in the Labour Party.

Corbyn merely wants to be obstructive, and block everything now as he thinks May and the Conservative Party are doomed to fail and the government will fail. And arguably this is a good and sensible calculation as things stand.

May's next Meaningful vote is due on the 29th Jan. But 28th Feb is pencilled in for a general election. Meaning it would have to be called by Thursday this week.

Will it happen?

We find out, not on this thread, but the next one... Or maybe even the one after that!

PS there was a bomb in Londonderry. And there's talk of a bilateral treaty with Ireland (a euphemisms for renegotiating the GFA).

Brexit was always ultimately about NI.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Mistigri · 20/01/2019 11:57

500 between them...which is nothing in politics but plenty to start things back up again in terms of violence,

Doesn't sound a lot, but I would be prepared to stake a lot of money that the number of gilets jaunes actively inciting violence here in France is less than 500 (seems to be mostly far right ex-mercenaries, especially those who have fought with Russian troops in Ukraine, plus some anarchists who can't tell their left from their right).

500 determined ideologists can do a lot of damage, especially if they can persuade normally law-abiding people to come along for the ride.

Mistigri · 20/01/2019 12:01

Somerville, really appreciate you talking about your experiences. All of us can learn from them.

I loved this from @PeterKGeoghegan on twitter:

And yet Britain’s relationship with Ireland points the way out of the current mess in Westminster. Perhaps we are too blunted by familiarity with the Good Friday Agreement to realise how remarkable it is. Everybody lost something. And, so everybody won something.

1tisILeClerc · 20/01/2019 12:02

{500 between them}
It only takes 1 placing a bomb which kills a few dozen for the shit to really hit the fan.
Even with the old tactics of placing with a timer then telling 'the authorities' doesn't rule out the possibility of getting it 'wrong' by accident.

Apileofballyhoo · 20/01/2019 12:06

I don't think the 'warning' last night was very long before the bomb went off. 10 minutes according to this.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1024360/

1tisILeClerc · 20/01/2019 12:07

Yes, thank you Somerville.
I went to Belfast in 1985 and remember the weirdness of the city centre.
Security visible obviously but at 4:50 pm the shopping was 'normal'.
By 5:10 the shops were shuttered up and there were just a handful of stragglers/ shop owners leaving promptly.

Quietrebel · 20/01/2019 12:09

Somerville 💐 from me too...

umpteennamechanges · 20/01/2019 12:14

I'm too young to really remember much of the troubles other than the Warrington bomb, which I probably paid more attention to as it was near us.

I did say I was going to read up on the Irish/English history so I'm toddling off to Amazon to order some books.

If anyone has any recommendations let me know...interested in the history from early days through to the troubles and also social history (particularly around the famine as that's when my ancestors came over to England so it would help me to understand what things were like for them.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/01/2019 12:21

An event by this chap:
www.premierchristianity.com/Blog/Why-leaving-the-EU-means-we-can-return-to-our-Christian-heritage is being advertised in our Sunday bulletin this weekend. Confused

It ain't just the US that has a problem with right wing Christian extremists.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 20/01/2019 12:22

Flowers Somerville. So sorry

Mrsr8 · 20/01/2019 12:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Somerville · 20/01/2019 12:35

Sorry for the me-rail and really, no sympathy needed. I’m half a lifetime and half a country away from all of it, and lots of water has gone under the bridge since. My main emotion about it all is deep frustration that younger generations look to be embroiled in it all again.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/01/2019 12:37

Thank you for recounting your experiences Somerville.

PerverseConverse · 20/01/2019 12:42

Two arrests over the Derry car bomb. I suspect this is just the beginning.

I wish we could either go back in time and never have the referendum, or fast forward 20 years when e writhing has hopefully settled.

PerverseConverse · 20/01/2019 12:42

*everything

1tisILeClerc · 20/01/2019 12:44

There was a story about a couple of Irish lads cycling the border that was very revealing. I think it was on the BBC website. It was a month or so back.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 20/01/2019 12:45

I know the thread has moved on a little from this but can I just correct the pp that said this

Corbyn wants Brexit, momentum want anything Corbyn wants, I don't believe that most Labour members want Brexit.

Momentum want to remain and are campaigning as such

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/01/2019 12:47

Sorry, that was my error. Blush

DGRossetti · 20/01/2019 12:58

I don't think the 'warning' last night was very long before the bomb went off. 10 minutes according to this.

The coded "warning" system was designed to prevent the British going "oh, my how terrible, if only we'd known". Remember, it was media outlets that got the warning.

These days, it would probably be via Twitter from an overseas account. If the perpetrators really wanted to troll HMG, they'd do it from a country (like the US) which doesn't have much faith in the UKs human rights protections. (harking back to extradition battles for IRA members from the US in the 80s).

For myself, I'd be surprised if there were to be attacks on civilians, when it's much more effective to target the wealth creation machine. There are already plenty of businesses that wouldn't need an excuse to depart the UK. Threats of violence would be the final straw. Especially if they have no confidence in the UKs ability to deal with it.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 20/01/2019 13:00

Star of The Sea was a good book by Joseph O'Connor.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 20/01/2019 13:01

*Although a novel rather than historical academia.

SwedishEdith · 20/01/2019 13:04

That Rral Conservative Mvem*nt stuff is exceptionally creepy. And its leader claims to be an ex-Star and Express journalist. Quelle surprise.
This kind of stuff never pops up in my FB feed so can't challenge people who post this shite.

Thanks for posting Somerville. I know people who work in NI who still talk of no-go areas.

SwedishEdith · 20/01/2019 13:05

Oh, I'm about to start Star of the Sea.

Mrsr8 · 20/01/2019 13:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SwedishEdith · 20/01/2019 13:08

And watch 'The wind that shakes the barley' - Ken Loach.

Quietrebel · 20/01/2019 13:12

Meanwhile in Brexitland, news from 'spoons:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8234852/wetherspoons-tim-martin-brexit-eu-beer-wine/amp/

Swaps EU produce for cheap imports from around the world.