Why didn't we get facts like this in advance?

[Somewhereovertheroad]

HMRC projects additional Brexit red tape will cost UK businesses £6.5 billion/year. NHS estimates cost of satisfying new visa requirements on behalf of staff at £490 million/year.
*
That's nearly £7 billion in annual Brexit costs, or close to the £9 billion we pay as EU members!*

Why wasn't the homework done so we could have known things like this in advance?

assuming it's true

It just strikes me that the homework really wasn't done. Who looked at the various outcome scenarios?

Er me. Didn’t everyone?

Why did I vote for Remain? What was I voting for?

Many many reasons but:

1. First and foremost, economic prosperity for the UK being part of the world largest trading block and all the advantages that that brings; particularly for the poorest members of society. (One can indeed argue that many sections of society are suffering badly now, but I believe that Leaving will make these issues worse.)

1. Peace and security: I think it's a good idea to be on good terms with your closest geographic neighbours who share roughly the same middle leaning, social democratic (loosely) Christian values and to have those good terms reinforced with mutual trade deals which means it is in the interests of all the Member States to not declare war on one another!

And looking with a wider perspective, the world is an unstable place currently. What happens across the globalised world politically and economically does and will affect us. This is unavoidable however we try and isolate ourselves. We all know about wars in the Balkans. We know about Putin's annexation of the Crimea. If the EU hadn't allowed Eastern European accession countries to join as they were developing their fledgling democracies and economies, do you think Putin would have only been active in the Ukraine or elsewhere too? It's also in our interests that the accession countries prosper.

1. Owing to the past performances of successive governments of all flavours, I do not entirely trust British governments when it comes to governing work (opting out of social chapter/zero hour contracts) food production (BSE) and environmental standards (state of beaches until blue flag scheme introduced to highlight one small example).

Unlike some, I am happy that that there is a higher body checking on these things!

1. The exchange and funding of scientific and medical know-how.

1. The rights of UK citizens to work and study in all Member State countries on roughly the same terms and conditions as if they were living in the UK.

Why did remainers vote remain? What were you voting for?

To stop Ford European operations boss saying no-deal will be disastrous for its UK plants.

It is patently obvious to anyone with half a brain that the moment it starts to become more expensive and slower to import/export car bits to europe, they will eventually leave, giving jobs and taxes to Germany/France etc & closing down all the car part suppliers too.

Add Airbus into that too.

I "knew" leaving the EU would be a total dogs dinner and that's exactly what it has turned out to be.... so i hope all you leavers are fucking pleased with what you've gone and done.

This stuff is not a surprise to anyone who bothered to look.

Do you all honestly believe that the EU circa 2016 is how it will always stay? Of course it won't because it isn't the same as it was 20 years ago.

Our country does have a say in the future of the EU if we’re in it though...

I’m not sure why you’re speaking to me as if I’m some kind of idiot. I’m being perfectly polite.

Some of the reasons for remain on here have been explained very well.Shame you weren't in charge of the campaign!
I found it really difficult to decide which way to vote - the 'facts', personalities and the decision was confusing and overwhelming - I knew a lot of people like this.

Why did I vote to remain.

1. 70 years of peace in Western Europe
2. FOM.
3. Clean air, clean sea water - I remember the 70s
4. Trade and economy
5. Basic workers rights
6. Red tape - H&S saves lives
7. British influence on EU policy
8. A chance to influence 'troubled' EU nations
9. Cultural exchange

10. Erasmus 11. Strong EU is a force in the world and a counter weight to China and the US 12. ESF doing what our governments should do 13 Rights to collective bargaining 14. Pet passports

I could go on....

I could provide facts and evidence for all...

Any leavers who want to play this game please join in.

We did get the facts

Yes the EU changes, as do we all, as does every country and institution.

When we are in the EU we have the opportunity to influence that - isn't that great? We get to shape the future of Europe our nearest neighbour.

{Our country does have a say in the future of the EU if we’re in it though...}
With the vetoes and concessions arguably the UK had one of the best 'deals' in the EU of all the countries.

Facts were there. Leave voters could read as well as me.

I think it was pretty obvious that Brexit was going to cost a LOT of money. Any significant regulation changes always does.

Penny dropped yet Weetabix ?

@Habadabadoo many of the people on here were saying exactly this on MN during the campaign. We were shouted down, called unpatriotic and part of Project Fear.

What I can’t understand is why so many ordinary working people think no deal is a good thing ! So many of them are interviewed on the radio or tv and they invariably say ‘we just need to leave’ or ‘we want out’. It’s like a kind of mantra....they voted leave 2 1/2 years ago and that was the end of it. No further thought about it, no interest in the negative forecasts from business leaders, economic experts, scientists or academics .... it’s like a mass brainwashing because the same old sound bites keep coming up repeatedly. What’s worrying is that they’re never corrected even when it’s obvious they’re spouting blatant bollocks, it’s all done in the name of balance so the same old crap just continues

Can I ask, if you didn't want to vote remain why did you not want a referendum, and what would you like to have happened instead?

Because I didn't believe that a decision of this magnitude should be used by 1 party to gain political capital from.

For me, there was no clear decision and positives and negatives on both sides.

I wish that I could share in your optimistic belief in the EU going forward but I just don't. We may well have had a veto over some decisions but I cannot believe that the other 26 countries would always accept the UK being able to stop them from taking a decision if it were 26 against 1.

Every reason that you give for remaining are policies that exist now. So you were in effect voting for "now" but change is inevitable. So again, where will these policies be in 10 years?

Will FOM be the same?
Will ERASMUS still exist?
What other countries will join or leave? How will that change the EU?

My fundamental belief is that 27 countries cannot continue to be joined together in this way. If the EU has no control over government policies of member countries then how does it guarantee it's existence? The only way that I can see the EU continuing is by taking more control away from member states. You may all disagree which is fine. As none of us have a crystal ball you cannot guarantee that you are right. You can only believe that you are right, as I believe that I am right and yes, as we were backed into a corner with "now or never" I had only 2 choices - vote to leave or not vote.

When we are in the EU we have the opportunity to influence that - isn't that great? We get to shape the future of Europe our nearest neighbour.

Not really, no. We are 1 of 27. If all 26 other states voted against us then what?

We have a veto.

Penny dropped yet Weetabix ?

No. You all voted remain to keep what the EU was in 2016.

Tell me what it will be in 5,10,20 years time. Then I'll tell you if the penny has dropped.

Moussemoose

So we have a veto over every decision for ever? Even if we are in the minority? So no law or motion or regulation has ever been passed by the EU if the UK has voted against it? Really?

Other European countries agree with the U.K. stance on some issues. Denmark did not join the Euro.

As you say there are 27 countries we could seek to build alliances. Why do Brexiters always imagine we are alone and everyone hates us? Other countries often look to the U.K. for a lead. Until this fiasco we had a large degree of respect, people listened to the U.K.

Why do Brexit supporters see divisions when you could see alliances?

Where it has passed we haven't had to be involved or did I miss the bit where we changed our currency?

Sorry there must be something wrong with the figures the don't make sense. The cost for the visa is £65 per person. £490m would require over 7.5m EU staff joining the nhs each year. There are 1.5m staff in the nhs in total.

Why should we assume the U.K. will always get its own way. Is the U.K. the equivalent of a 2 year old?

When you cooperate you don't always get everything you want but that's not always a bad thing. Working with our neighbours for mutually agreeable solutions even if we have to give some ground is what grown ups do. Demanding our own way all the time makes us an irresponsible neighbour.

This is from fullfact.org.

UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

That's not a bad record. Is it worth thrown all the benefits away because 2% of the time you lost?