Why didn't we get facts like this in advance?

[Somewhereovertheroad]

HMRC projects additional Brexit red tape will cost UK businesses £6.5 billion/year. NHS estimates cost of satisfying new visa requirements on behalf of staff at £490 million/year.
*
That's nearly £7 billion in annual Brexit costs, or close to the £9 billion we pay as EU members!*

Why wasn't the homework done so we could have known things like this in advance?

assuming it's true

@Clavinova I wasn't having a go I was just clarifying. The term is much misunderstood.

How can a federal Europe help the U.K.? It will mean most decision will be made at a local level so they can be more relevant and reactive. Federalism means local people have more influence.

Most leavers want and support local decision making they are opposed to a strong central state so a federal organisation should be something they want.

Federalism isn't usually linked to macro economics.

I understand all the concerns about tariffs and JiT and frictionless trade. But I operate in the real world where arrangements are made and people co-operate.
So do and one of the things that makes it much easier to operate in the real world of JiT is frictionless borders. The frictionless border that allows staff from RoI to come to work in our NHS hospitals every day.

Dione - the UK and RoI have long had a special arrangement of their own in regards to living and working (Fom) that pre-dates the EU. In fact around referendum time there were 'noises' coming from the EU that this arrangement wasn't fair and needed re-visiting with a view to rescinding.

The Common Travel Area was introduced mostly because policing the border between the then Irish Free State (later the Republic of Ireland) and Northern Ireland would have been very difficult (as of course it would be now).
My father, travelling from Dublin to Liverpool after visiting my (Irish) mother's family early in the war (when the CTA was suspended and restrictions were imposed) was arrested and imprisoned overnight for suspicious activity when he got off the ferry. The suspicious activity? Carrying two heavy bags. They were heavy because they contained his medical textbooks - he had his final exams coming up.

Coventry voted almost 56% for Leave.

Hate, I remember the border controls and lengthy queues from my childhood. Whatever "special arrangement" was in operation before the EU, was shite and couldn't possibly be described as FoM. It would certainly not work now.

Coventry may have voted Leave but I bet no one there thinks Boris has a clue about how to manufacture cars.

Heard the World at One. They were doing vox pop in one of the towns where there is a Nissan factory. There were several leave voters but when one was asked about the impact on Nissan and local companies supplying parts and services said that he had not really thought about that. Fololwed by comment that Nissan leaving would be a disaster especially for jobs - but something would turn up if they went......
Another chap was complaining that they were still discussing after 2 and a half years- he had expected us to be out 2 days after the vote and what was hold up.

Moussemoose
I wasn't having a go I was just clarifying
That's ok then.

Sorry, but a Federal Europe including the UK sounds like a pipe dream.

It is indeed a dream. It is an ideal.

Didn't someone write a song about that "you may say I'm a dreamer"?

I like to work towards ideals - I don't see it as a weakness.

Don’t ask me I still can’t believe or get over how many gullible people fell for all the propaganda and we’re suckered into voting for it and were and some still are arguing the virtues of Brexit.

The propaganda was very glittery but not worthy of any examination, hence the shouting if you try (the leavers are still shouting to prevent thought).

Boris Johnson never mentioned Turkey in the referendum, says Boris.

Never said 80 million Turks were coming over the hill to move in next door.

Never said Turkey would be a member of the EU soon.

Never said it.

He says.

Diablo in those old days we didn't have all the tech we have nowadays either. I do note though that under the current RTR info that RoI nationals are exempt from applying for Right to Remain. I recently looked it up for an Irish friend of mine in his 70s who thought he might have to.

And you must also be old enough to remember all those Aussie/Kiwi/Carribean nurses that used to be in our hospitals in substantial numbers too. Now they can come here and work again too using new schemes that open up the jobs to them as equal to EU nurses too.

Although I think the best thing to do as well is bring back nursing bursaries and go back to the SEN/SRN so that not all nurses need a degree to qualify.

We never had a lot of Aussie/Kiwi/Caribbean nurses here. I assume the Troubles put a lot of people off coming to NI. How long would we have to wait for them to come? And it's not just nurses, quite a few of our doctors and consultants come from RoI. They don't live in the UK, they cross the border to every day.

Although I think the best thing to do as well is bring back nursing bursaries and go back to the SEN/SRN so that not all nurses need a degree to qualify

Nurses need a degree because the job has moved on, i recently had an ECG given to me by a HCA, nurses today are doing stuff today that Doctors would have done a few years ago.

But i agree on bursaries, its a scandal that my daughter is going to end up owing over 50k to earn 25k ish, its a joke, though as Auss has a shortage of nurses, not sure they'll be coming here, my DD has been offered a job there before she has qualified!

The 'promotional campaign' will have to be something special to attract new nursing staff as the news around the world is painting the UK as racist, financially ruined and for medics, massively understaffed.
Why would anyone want to bother when there are 'nicer' places to go?
Even if it is not actually true, bad news travels fastest.

Quite a number of docs I know have moved to Oz to escape the NHS. The UK may have been an attractive destination for kiwi/oz/Caribbean doctors and nurses 40 years ago but now? Unless there is a specialist skill they need to learn (and those are likely to diminish post brexit as we cut ourselves off from European networks) then why would they come here? Pay is lower than their home countries (and in the case of the Caribbean, lower than the US), the NHS is knackered. We are losing nurses to these places, not the other way round.

the news around the world is painting the UK as racist, financially ruined and for medics, massively understaffed.
We've already lost one of the most qualified consultants in NI because of this.
www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/01/12/news/leading-northern-ireland-doctor-quits-toxic-nhs-to-work-in-republic-1526648/

The problem is the uncertainty, the link that Clavinova posted, is the RCP trying to figure out what the effect will be on recruitment and retention in the NHS cost wise in the event of a no deal Brexit, whilst simultaneously taking into account this Governments hostile environment attitude to immigrants regardless of their skill set. Of course it is speculative, they are working on what they have to work with, which like every single effected industry currently amounts to not a lot. 70 days to go and we have no concrete idea of what is actually going to happen. In light of that I thought the RCP piece was quite low key.

I agree with all that you say there jas - I recall the Antipodean/UK Nursing streams went both ways - an opportunity for all the nurses to go to other countries, work, experience and stay or not stay.

Yes, very much agree that nursing involves high-tec stuff (which may or may not need a degree to operate) - but also (totally another thread) involves many equally important things that don't need a degree to do; not everyone can, nor wants, to do a degree - and Nursing needs those potentially Great Nurses as much as the Degree ones.

Thinking of some solutions to our inevitable 'NHS crisis' - as the UK apparently isn't as "nice" as other places/countries and no non-UK 'medic' would dream of coming here in light of how 'horrid' we are:

Re-open the Community Hospitals, so that the Hospitals (with the High Tec) can do the High Tec procedures. The Rural Areas really need these valuable resources - I read up thread that apparently those in Rural UK can earn £400pw and that is very attractive to "Bulgarians". Really? Is that £400pw all year? Or is that income and not earnings based? Makes a difference - the countryside has become pretty unaffordable for those relying on local wages

Just I'm sure if the State can train up local people to the standard required in Community Hospitals and guarantee a minimum salary of £400pw - it would be very helpful.

All of the issues are solveable IF the government, of either flavour wanted to do it. Basically speaking, neither side really want to fix the UK properly.
Guy Vanderhofen summed up the problem well in that the UK political system is set up to be adversarial rather than working together to resolve issues. To move forward it needs to change but of course it is the UK than has to want to change.

Hatels Yep we agree again! the problem with the community hospitals is they need staffing and we ve not enough nurses/hca's

So within 30miles of me, Saltash, Holsworthy and Seaton community hospitals have all seen either total or partial closures due to no staff.

Cornwalls 7 MIU's are destined to become 3 or 4 if the local NhS plan gets approval.

Apparently 4000 EU nurses left the uk in 2016/17, with 805 coming here, doesn't inc care workers.

As i said on an could other thread, we are leaving the EU without a plan and no prep for the consequences.