Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

Brexit, like pornography, defies definition, except I know it when I see it ....

So why did they vote for it, why are they so passionate about it - what do they think it will do for them? What is their real problem?

Oh come on! We have been having this conversation for two and half years. There are a lot of real issues people face. We all know that and we all acknowledge it, but fixing them will be hard and it will take a long time and a lot of people who are doing very well thank you might have to give up some things. Leavers don't want to hear that. They don't want their real issues acknowledged. It's far far easy to blame it all in some other external cause and decide leaving the EU is a magic fix that will make everything better.

And the thing is once people have that magical unicorn that will make everything super in their minds they don't want to let it go. Particularly not if all you have to offer them to fix the real complex issues is decades of hardwork and compromise.

It's the same mentality that takes a crash diet or magic pill over long term changes of diet and lifestyle to lose weight despite all the studies saying the crash diet will probably leave them fatter in the long term.

So you can listen all you want and sympathise and care and offer solutions but if you can find me one hard core brexiteer in the next week who will not only acknowledge their real issues but also give up their green field of unicorns for actual workable solutions I will faint from shock and amazement, and happily vote for you come the next election.

thegirl if you read my previous post about no deal and took anything from it other than exhaustion and frustration and letting off steam then I don't know what to say to you.

let everyone feel the pain, it's the only way they'll learn, tends to be a temporary thought before pulling up your big girl knickers and getting on with the job.

I called out those posters who posted just before me that said we should just let the shit happen because leavers deserve it or they're tired of it.*

Fireplace, I think there is misunderstanding here. Almost no one posting on here wants no deal.

Everyone's exhausted. Giving up comments are extremely unhelpful to the cause and are/can and have been seized on leavers to demonstrated "Remain" has lost its popularity. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say to you.

I found the programme on Brexit and DC fascinating. I work with people in that role (in business) and winning is everything. It’s like debating at school, pick up the gauntlet and run with it even if you were handed that side by chance.

Sky News has learnt that the bosses of companies including construction giant Balfour Beatty, Tesco and Amazon told a trio of ministers - including the chancellor, Philip Hammond - in a hastily convened conference call - that protracted Brexit uncertainty was damaging Britain's ‎economy.

During the call, which lasted nearly an hour, Mr Hammond, the Brexit secretary and business secretary were repeatedly asked for reassurance about the likelihood of a no-deal departure from the EU.

John Allan, the chairman of Tesco and president of the CBI, urged ministers to provide clarity after Steve Barclay, the Brexit secretary, said that retaining the option of no-deal ‎was essential to protect the government's bargaining power with Brussels.

Leo Quinn, Balfour Beatty's chief executive, asked: "I would like to know when we might get back to a normal functioning government. (my emphasis)

"Decisions are being delayed on HS2, new nuclear, Heathrow expansion.

"The enemy of business is delay and procrastination, and the construction industry will face large-scale restructuring where it cannot carry the resources it will need over the next 25 years, and capability will have to be let go.

news.sky.com/story/bosses-round-on-ministers-after-may-defeat-11608495

@Mistigri then they shouldn't say it. Everything on social media becomes a weapon that can be used.

The problem is not immigration. The problem is the absence of so many companies having a structure and hierarchy which encourages learning and training and upward movement.

DH's father started at the bottom and could move up to a high level regardless of his education.

DH had a ceiling on the level he could have reach via that route without a degree. Regardless of what that degree was in or whether it gave him skills or knowledge which aided him in his work.

I do wonder about the value we place on university and the lack of value we put on proper training schemes as a country.

You don't have to characterise any voter. Just accept they voted for their own reasons and feelings. Why this constant need to label people into categories? Oh he voted leave he must be a racist, she voted remain , she's a snob etc etc etc now I'm getting angry!

'Remaining' is nothing without understanding the underlying resentment in society. Remaining is not enough. You have to recognise those problems and offer solutions to those issues.

The greivances were UK based but blamed on the EU. You can't stay in the EU without unloading those greivances too.

You don't have to characterise any voter. Just accept they voted for their own reasons and feelings. Why this constant need to label people into categories? Oh he voted leave he must be a racist, she voted remain , she's a snob etc etc etc now I'm getting angry!

You do have to characterise them if you want to engage with them, though. That's not about putting people into boxes it's about understanding where they are coming from.

For the vast majority of active leave supporters, Brexit has come to have a religious fervour that I don't really understand. I'm not sure about how you engage with that, but rational argument and "understanding" don't cut it.

It's not impossible to envisage a future where - thanks to the collapse of what was left of indigenous British business - we see a massive influx of foreign companies and workers needed to keep things going.

Er, why do we have to hire a German engineer ?

Well, you know those few years you spend pissing around with Brexit, and basically letting things backslide ? Well, one of the consequences of that was when your country finally started looking vaguely normal, you woke up and realised things had rather passed you by. Old chap.

Not only seized on by leavers, I should add.

There are also those less staunch borderline remainers who don't post but lurk and swallow up everything that's said on here who may themselves give and decide fuck it, xxx poster seems very knowledgable and they've said we. There's no point in going for remain anymore.

I've the Brexit ref taught us anything, it's the power of social media!

I've the Brexit ref taught us anything, it's the power of social media!

A selective "power" at best ...

I think Remain is best. But we need to be more honest about what ELSE needs to happen to make it work. Change MUST happen.

Fireplace, I don't really understand why you're putting yourself in the position of "thread thought police". People who are directly impacted by Brexit are expressing their feelings about it, and in my darker moments, my genuine feeling (that I have no intention of acting on) is that "I hope leaver voters get the no deal Brexit they appear to want, and that I hope it hurts".

Because a no deal Brexit also has serious implications for me and my family, of course I don't really wish for it - and of course given a chance (I won't be) I would vote against it.

@DGRossetti

What does "

A selective "power" at best ..."

Mean?

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar
NEW: Here is the statement from Labour MPs and MEPs calling for second referendum:

It’s signed by 71 Labour MPs and 13 MEPs. Fair to say the true numbers supporting second ref are much higher and include many on front bench.

So a challenge to Corbyn's authority...

{This thread is regularly littered with let everyone feel the pain, it's the only way they'll learn. Often, I might add, from people not living in the UK}

I am one of them. I have said my position on many occasions, I voted Remain.
I now see that due to the decisive and frankly appalling behavior of many in the UK, from Mrs May, the cabinet, MPs, the press and the 'peoples' that now the position of the UK within the EU is not desirable.
As a member of the EU 'top table' in many respects it needs to be strongly supporting France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and others in a whole range of very serious matters. Mrs May does not even have the decency to turn up at meetings with the right documentation (Brexit timelines missed) so reluctantly the UK should leave.
As I said a bit earlier the UK buggering the EU may be seen by various 'boneheads' as a 'victory over the EU', but it in reality it would make the catastrophe of a hard Brexit look like a morning in the kindergarden.
The world is a hell of a lot bigger, tougher and nastier than many in the UK realise.

Otto English @Otto_English
And we're off

FPTP is totally tied up to the winner takes it all strategy.

Why when Universal credit was introduced did we not make seasonal work easy to do? We have things like computers, it would be possible.
One of DD's friends got paid for untaken holiday (3 days), they stopped all benefits, without parents in a position to help, she would have been facing food bank and possible eviction.
So many people live with this as their reality, no wonder they are peeved.
We need to sort us.

The thing is, Remain and Leave were not equal options. Remain was just now things were. I think it's a little disingenuous of the Leave camp to try and get Remain to justify themselves in the way Leavers get asked. Which is how the narrative has been skewed.

The posters such as Mistigri, BCF myself and others who have a perspective from 'across the water' or take a viewpoint outside the UK can perhaps see this a touch more clearly.