Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

I have a solution!
I go into HoC with a gun to my head. Demand they listen to me. I demand both TM and JC resign immediately, tell all the MPs there is no way we can have no deal ( nods from MPs on this) we HAVE to revoke, therefore no need for PV and demand a GE. In the meanwhile a national Government to form till the GE. If they don't agree then shoot myself. Perhaps if they see real blood, real death they will finally listen!

It’s a really good point you make @time4chocolate. Feeling angry is one thing, insulting people is another. Insults (on both sides) are making the situation worse.

Our children are depending on us to be the grown ups and do what's best, not what's easiest, or what's the best revenge or what makes us look coolest or wokest

You are very much preaching to the converted, we’re just tired. Tired of the country being lied to and tired of so many people buying into the lies.

I don't get the handwringing about calling a spade a spade. We've been called traitors, citizens of nowhere, queue jumpers and all the rest. I'm quite comfortable with using the word stupid for a group of people who consistently demonstrate their lack of ability to grasp the issues.

I'll nuance that if I have to (some of them are evil rather than stupid, and some of them are just disinterested in politics).

The time for compromise is long past, and it would need to be led by the government anyway (and it won't be).

But yeah I'd leap at a sensible compromise. I just don't think the leave side are capable of it. Winner takes all. Well, you're welcome to it.

I'm clearly not preaching to the converted when there were two posts back to back saying we just need to have no deal and be feel the immense pain, it's the only answer.

That is not doing the right thing by the next generation.

Any PV campaign needs to focus on the young. Not just convince them that remain is better- they know that- but convince them to actually vote.
As for the 'remainers are too rude to leavers' thing, I could list all the abuse that's come my way from leavers too. Doesn't change anything. I am not going to patronise people by pretending I think their points are valid when I don't.

Genuine question - maybe fantasyland - if we crash out and it goes horribly wrong, is there a chance of rejoining?

No one in real life believes there could be food shortages. The main concern people have voiced is that we wouldn't have Aldi and Lidl as they are German and so 'wouldn't be allowed' to open after Brexit.

Very mixed messages on medication - I rely on meds to stay well and ultimately alive, so this concerns me.

Most people, including my DH, say 'they' won't let anything bad happen.

So if we go right to the wire, crash out, it goes horribly wrong, can we crawl back, under any deal? Because unless it happens people are just not believing it can go wrong. It's all unicorns and sunny uplands, or, 'not that bad'.

Fireplace you're (I assume) not a regular poster, in a group of people who've been talking to each other for three years about how to stop Brexit and in many cases are involved in the various campaigns.

Maybe we cant stop it, and if that's the case - yes, I do hope that the harm of a no Brexit is disproportionately felt by leavers.

If other Remainers are like me, the Leavers really have won. My original spirit is broken and theirs isn't, iyswim.
I know some remainers who would now vote no deal because they can't tolerate a semi-in status and think the EU are being intransigent.
These are mainly retired baby boomers who own their homes and have a nice pension. It's a bit frustrating.

It wouldn’t work anyway - even if we have no food, no medicine, deaths... those who are committed to leave no matter what would find somebody else to blame. They will not suddenly go “oh shit, you were all right”

This is very true. So keep battling on I guess only more limply.

But ...those workmen this morning ...shouting "hear, hear, hear" to TM voicing her determination about delivering Brexit on the radio. They apparently really, really don't want to be part of a trading bloc at least not the EU one. So Weird when you put it like that.

It’s a really good point you make @time4chocolate. Feeling angry is one thing, insulting people is another. Insults (on both sides) are making the situation worse.

So give me an example of leavers reaching out or engaging in good faith.

Go on.

You know labelling people who vote a certain way and lumping them together is not really helpful!

We'll have to get past France again, as the first time. Macron is dubious about British good faith now.

We have to remember in this as in all else the EU is 27 countries, who work together. Britain has not been acting well and this fiasco is hardly a solid basis for good agreements going forwards.

Michael Rosen’s poem gives us the solution I think. This is what we are up against:

^Fascism: I sometimes fear...
I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.

Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...

It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."^

The problem is this isn’t a short term solution. The people need and want jobs, investment, pride. We do not need to leave the EU to do that. We have been sold the lies for so long that we have no money to make anything right so when a politician comes along offering money, we mock them and ask about magic money trees.

Maybe this is another clue - we need to listen to understand Leavers feelings rather than listen in order to offer corrections. The leave campaign was won on feelings. They need to feel like they’re being heard. The lies peddled by Daily Mail type rags for years and years have a lot to answer for and returns to my point yesterday about accountability.

There must be a middle ground. I’m not ready to give up on it yet.

I'm quite comfortable with using the word stupid for a group of people who consistently demonstrate their lack of ability to grasp the issues.

STOP !!!!!!

If someone hasn't the ability to grasp the issues, there are deserving of the patience and effort of those that do, to get an explanation they can grasp. They are not stupid or ignorant.

Save your contempt for those people who can grasp things and yet make a conscious decision not to. They are ignorant and thick. And there are a lot of them about in Brexit land.

I like Pesty's idea:

I'm for sorting the MPs into groups, according to their leave / stay status and forcing them to talk. Ten groups should do it. Talk to each other,negotiate and to listen. Then getting them to present their ideas and proposals to work out a compromise (it will always be a compromise).

Like you would do with a Y10 group to improve thinking, debating and communication skills. Might be a bit much for some MPs though.

mistigirl! What the hell is "you're obviously not a regular" meant to mean?

I've been fighting against Brexit for 3 years and doing more than just posting on bloody Mumsnet threads.

I'm not entirely sure what you're point even is but you seem to think I don't understand how tired you all are from posting on Mumsnet about it for 3 years while I've been what? Sitting on my arse scratching it?

I think you owe me an apology.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, Mistigri. And like I said before, it just makes the division deeper.

Does anyone expect brexiteers to change their mind overnight after the vote yesterday? Do we expect each other to change our minds overnight after the vote yesterday?
Oh do be sensible!

Nothing good can come of giving up the adult position. Give up a passive position, sure, but we need more adults, not less.

Mistigri it is the case that as soon as immigration is mentioned, pro-immigration people immediately jump up and down and say 'oh but the system benefits, so you're wrong'. People treat immigrants as if they have to be either all saints or all evil.

There have been issues with immigration. Sajid Javid recently went on record as saying that we can no longer ignore ethnicity in cases of sexual grooming gangs, which was nice to see. Of course,
in that case he was talking about non-EU ethnicities. www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/03/sajid-javid-defends-noting-the-ethnicity-of-child-grooming-gang

{I don’t post on here as it’s an echo chamber but couldn’t let this go:}
Referring to this series of threads as an 'echochamber' is unnecessary and incorrect. We have lovely cats, dogs and guinea pigs and the discussion matter ranges over a wide area.
Asking 'leave' voters open questions such as 'what new industry can you think of to replaced car manufacturing which will put around 1 - 2 million out of work'? has not been answered by anyone yet. I've only been asking for 6 months or so. I have even put a couple of suggestions up myself.