Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

Beef is 90% isn’t it?

We try to listen, but when Leavers say e.g. we want to make our own laws, and not be dictated to by the EU, they can't quote a law. Or they come up with a law which is wholly to do with Westminster. Point this out and they come back and say that they are being bullied.

We ask, what sort of Leave do you want - it's mostly soundbites, but sometimes it's investment or jobs. We ask why do you trust the Govt to deliver when they haven't shown any interest in doing so. We then usually get a diatribe about Corbyn.

I think one person did come up with an EU law about the transport of live animals. I don't know whether we could introduce better standards, I suspect we could. If the person felt that EU standards weren't good enough, then how would the UK removing (and we will say better standards) influence the situation? I don't remember the answer though, I probably didn't get one.

At the moment I refuse to believe that parliament would allow no deal onto a referendum. There is no majority for it and it’s dangerous to offer it. It puts the country and the people at risk and violates international law. I may be proved wrong but at the moment I just can’t believe they could put that to the people.

I just walked back on the school run. Some men digging a hole in the road had the radio on. The news was playing an extract of TMs speech where she said she would deliver on the Brexit people voted for. The workmen joined in with a chorus of " Hear, hear, hear!"

It's hopeless. We may as well embrace the nemesis of a no deal. It's the only way to lance the boil.

{WTO rules are fine for buying things but we need to sell things. We are an expensive country to buy from and have very few unique selling points.}
This last observation is important. The UK is unlikely to sell on 'mass production' terms, the minimum wage is still many times the wage of Bangladeshi workers. Trading on 'uniqueness' / reputation is encouraged by the EU so 'Cheddar cheese' has to come from Cheddar. Sorry crap example and that particular cheese may not be one that is 'protected'. There is certainly rulings about regional and individual goods. Parma ham is one I think.

Long drive for work, whilst depressed listening to R4. The message from government seems to be that the WA is still the basis for a deal?! WTF - how is it not completely dead after that vote??
And they’re talking to “senior parliamentarians” (rather than the Opposition) but with all their previous red lines still in place.
It’s insane, to the extent that my generally optimistic and relaxed DH is off looking to buy a diesel generator. He’s not the most practical of creatures so God knows what he’ll buy...

We stand to lose the protected status on regional foods because it's EU law.

we may as well embrace the nemesis of no deal

My fuckit goblin is on my shoulder this morning, I'm exhausted, I can't see a way out of it all, and I'm starting to agree that we should Just Let Them Have It.

Like disobedient toddlers, let them stick their fingers in the sockets and see what happens.

And I hate myself for feeling that way, and know I'll regret it bitterly, but god, I'm so worn down by the gaslighting.

The problem isn't that remainers don't listen or worry about the problems leavers talk about it is that when leavers say they want to be listened to what they really mean is they want us to agree with them

Totally agree with bigley leavers are being listened to. But on the whole remainers are sympathetic with their reasons for voting (if that is lack of investment, austerity and many people feeling “left behind”)
Remainers just can’t see how leaving the E.U. and knackering the economy will fix any of these things.

I think it’s pretty rare for leavers to get called thick but it does happen and I wish it wouldn’t.

I genuinely am starting to wish job losses, no medicine and empty shelves on brexiters. But that means wishing the same on the currently around 54% of the electorate who don't have shit for brains, and the dependents of both groups.

What the fuck? I can't be arsed anymore so let's just I ahead and destroy our country? Really? I'll tell that to my kids shall I?

And another one. Yay. Let's have no medicine, that'll teach them. I'll tell that to my 13 year old son who depends on daily medicine and had no vote and would get no vote if there was a PV

Leave campaign can go in hard with they didn’t listen, make them mode.

What can remain say - anything on the economy bombs (mostly)

It’s a much harder sell. It needs someone who can actually get messages through, it’s such a muddied mess atm

It wouldn’t work anyway - even if we have no food, no medicine, deaths... those who are committed to leave no matter what would find somebody else to blame. They will not suddenly go “oh shit, you were all right” and even if they did, the EU aren’t going to be rushing to take us back.

Our children are depending on us to be the grown ups and do what's best, not what's easiest, or what's the best revenge or what makes us look coolest or wokest.

Let's remember this is the country we pass on to the next generation here.

I dint think Remainers have not helped themselves by telling Leavers again and again that they were stupid or ignorant and didn’t know what they were talking about.

You need to distinguish between Leavers - who had genuine and logical reasons for voting Leave. They engage with debate, and put forward their reasoning and back it up with facts. They deserve respect, and generally - certainly on these threads - have got it.

Then there's Brexiteers who by their actions and postings are clearly thick as pigshit. They have no valid reason for their vote, except to reply in soundbites appended with "we won, get over it" or somesuchsimilar. And attempt to engage with them simply results in assertions, lies, unsubstantiated accusations, and an obvious deep dislike of the idea of justifying their position which usually descends into a post which makes it clear they just don't like foreigners. They get called thick racists, because they are thick racists.

Brexiteers like to use the word democracy a lot. I guess they are impressed by the number of letters. But you really shouldn't use words you don't understand ... an integral part of democracy is being held to account for your vote. By all means, vote for something if you "feel" that way. But don't be surprised if other people question that.

Just because a thick racist doesn't know they are a thick racists; calling them a thick racists isn't abuse. Merely the truth.

The "thick" bit should really be a derivative of "racist", but it's usually apparent when they are presented with verifiable facts - often from their own side - that they decide not to acknowledge.

(Some of us appear to be as angry as ever )

People can't help the way they feel. I'm in the Brexit firing line too as someone depending on FoM, and with an elderly parent who will be separated by Brexit from both her children (I may not have the right to return to care for her if she needs a carer, and she probably can't come here).

And tbh there is a limited amount that I can do beyond supporting British in Europe as I don't have a vote.

It's normal to wish harm on people that have consistently for the last 3 years made it clear that they want to harm you. Obviously in real life I wouldn't act on that.

Could we somehow have a referendum on the red lines? Might that reveal why people voted to leave?
This is the sort of thing that should have been looked at before triggering article 50 . I've said it on here before but I could accept brexit if it had been thought out. If there was a plan in place or we knew what shape brexit we wanted before hitting the proverbial red button. The GE should have been the place that was done. Instead it was all more meaningless sound bites about respecting the result.

The idea that leavers are the angry ones is getting a bit rich. I couldn't be crosser and I seriously hope a few more remainers get bloody cross soon.

I agree, it’s not that Leavers don’t get listened to. Leavers say a whole bunch of stuff. I hear them. I just think they’re WRONG.

Don’t fall for that entitled grievance perma-victim narrative. When they say they aren’t listened to, or they’re bullied, or shouted down, they just mean “why isn’t the universe bowing down in awe at my personal brilliant insight?” And anyway their brilliant personal insights into the utopian Brexit don’t even agree with each other.

I don’t post on here as it’s an echo chamber but couldn’t let this go:

I think it’s pretty rare for leavers to get called thick but it does happen and I wish it wouldn’t

2 minutes later straight under the above quote:

But that means wishing the same on the currently around 54% of the electorate who don't have shit for brains, and the dependents of both groups.

I’ll get my coat now - as you were

Revoke - unlikely (May is stubbon)
No Deal - disastrous but has been well sold by some.
May's deal - had a 101 possibilities but with she ain't no sales person.

The question we need to ask is what are we going to be doing in 6 months, 2 years, 5 or 10 years. No sound bites, firm plans and sensible predictions.

I think moving Parliament to Stoke and introducing a form of PR may be the only chance for the people to ever be listened to.

Thanks Peregrina, that is what I was trying to get to but the coffee hasn't worked yet.

The WA is not dead on the 'EU side' so although it has been voted down in the UK it is still one of the only 3 outcomes as far as the EU is concerned.
With the continued stupidity of the government backed by a rabble my view that the UK must leave is getting reinforced. It would be nice to think that there could be a mechanism by which it could rejoin in 6 months to a year's time once the practicalities of being 'out' have started to bite.
Brexit damaging the UK is one thing, but if pandering to the UK who show only limited enthusiasm for staying in the EU at political level does act like a cancer in the EU which causes disunity there we could well be really serious problems and you know who will be blamed.

I don’t think resorting to calling people anything helps. It doesn’t. It pushes them further away.

I agree there’s huge misunderstandings about the way democracy works in this country (it’s not direct representation) and what democracy means overall. I wonder where “we voted, get over it” came from. I guess David Cameron and his promise to implement. And yet - he ran. He didn’t implement. So why are the rest of us bound to his pledge? What’s wrong with saying - okay, we hear you, we will leave when we have found an appropriate way to do so. Or, first we will work to understand why you want to leave to be sure that leaving with actually solve those issues.

There a lot of people in the UK who are pissed off and this still is their chance to break free as they see it - it’ll be more entrenched

I’d love to know if anyone here would change their vote now