Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

So plan B was to pretend to listen starting from..2 1/2 months to the deadline.
Wonderful.

Made me think that the fear of No Deal has gone.

I think many Leavers never had that fear. As for remain voters that's what I was trying to say in my rambling post earlier.
My fear of no deal hasn't gone, but my will to battle it has been slowly eroded over two years faced with the immovable intransigence over the Leavers I know.

It's like when your children refuse to eat fruit and veg. Eventually part of you thinks I'm not going to fight this, you can eat Haribos 24/7 and get bloody scurvy then.

... when it ought to have been plan A 2.5 years ago!

I think it’s to run down the clock to a no deal

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor
Andrea Leadsom: “No deal is better than a bad deal.” #r4Today

Why aren't the centrists in each party working together???

Because that would mean having an alliance with the opposite party (or the LibDem) which no one will ever accept as they are THE enemy.
Have a look at the reaction of that Labour MP towards the LibDem and conservatives for example.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=SR7JwVjWByM
Go to around 1:36:00 to see that interaction. The journalist actually has to intervene to calm the Labour MP down as he was so aggressive....

Seb Dance MEP
@SebDance
Gerard Batten, leader of UKIP, has joined the far-right ENF Group (as set up by Len Pen et al) yet Farage is still leader of the EFDD group.

This means they both get speaking time to pour poison, purporting to represent the UK.

They are the first British MEPs to speak.

Could we somehow have a referendum on the red lines? Might that reveal why people voted to leave?

I agree with the PP who said about Leavers saying that remainers don’t listen. The problem I’ve seen is that the Leavers reasons aren’t based in fact. I voted remain but that’s less because I want to be in the EU per se and more because I can see that being outside the EU makes us worse off in many ways.

Or maybe some vote that gives people the chance to say that they were/are angry with Westminster - thus separating out Leavers from protest voters.

The masterminds behind the whole leave campaign have set us up - divide and conquer. They’ve set the Leavers up to be painted as xenophobic/racist/Nazi which the remainers were always going to call out, and then said to the Leavers “they’re calling you racist, are you going to stand for that?”. And now even where people are reaching to the middle to try and understand and find common ground, it’s not happening.

I’m rambling now. What I also haven’t seen much (any) of is Leavers trying to understand remainers POV.

I feel like you, lonelyplanet - completely ground down with it all. Then I think we have to grit our teeth; civil rights weren't won or Communism brought down, by people giving up, but digging in for the long haul.

If some prominent Leavers, the ones who have spent 2 1/2 years on these threads crowing about how we lost, dare to start whining about their lost jobs or whatever, then I won't be able to sympathise.

I never post on here but have been following since the referendum in 2016. Thank you to you all for your logic, impartiality and insight into the complex political machinations of the past 2 years!

I'm being bombarded on social media by No Deal nonsense - rather than a hope of No Brexit yesterday's vote has clearly spurred on the No Deal Leavers. Trouble is, they are spouting made up facts not, you know, facty facts.

Just to clarify: if we exit with No Deal will we immediately roll over to WTO conditions on 1st April? Are many other countries trading only on WTO terms? Will WTO terms appear pretty much the same as EU ones eg tariffs?

I thought the answers were no, no and no again but I'm getting shouted down.

People seem fixated on 'sticking it to the EU' by snubbing their deal for WTO conditions.

Any kind of referendum with No Deal as an option would be a dangerous thing imo.

There are definitely no countries trading solely on WTO terms (no, not even Mauritania).

There is a lot of misunderstanding about WTO unsurprisingly. Lots of people saying we trade with non-EU countries perfectly fine but haven’t realised that’s because we trade under the EU free trade agreement with favourable terms.

That's what I've said. They 'don't believe' it.

Yes that’s the response I’ve had when I’ve offered up the reality too - they either don’t believe it or it’s dismissed as project fear.

I agree with the PP who said about Leavers saying that remainers don’t listen

I have seen a lot of time spent on this thread and across the media listening to leavers. In just the last 24hrs I have heard an awful lot of leavers. There is handwringing all over the place about the poor left behind leavers. A whole lot of listening has happened in my experience, but that has only ever gone one way.

The problem isn't that remainers don't listen or worry about the problems leavers talk about it is that when leavers say they want to be listened to what they really mean is they want us to agree with them. Anything less than complete acceptance of their view point is refusing to listen.

I'm listening, I just don't agree with their conclusions and that's not likely to change.

My take at looking at the front page headlines is that (hopefully) only in Britain can they celebrate national stupidity and incompetence in such a loud manner.

I'm listening, I just don't agree with their conclusions and that's not likely to change.
I feel the same.

I haven’t called a single leaver any sort of name - not in public or in private. I feel angry when remainers resort to that level because it just entrenches positions on both sides. I think it’s essential to understand why Leavers voted the way they did. What I’ve gathered from those who have been willing to gain is that there’s huge misunderstandings about what the EU is responsible for and what Westminster is responsible for.

That’s what I’m most angry about. Even if Leavers get “their way” ie Brexit is completed, it won’t be what they want because it will not solve immigration, it will not give significantly more control over laws, it will not give us more money. We are not and cannot be better off outside the EU given the way the world works at the moment.

Which bit are we not listening to leavers about? and exactly which leavers? even the leavers are not listening to each other.

I'm steaming angry this morning that we are all in this stupid stupid position. Listening to the radio this morning to so much blethering, blaming and fantasising.

Chris Green MP says there shouldn’t be indicative votes in Parliament because then the EU would know the UK’s negotiating position.

WTF?

I'm for sorting the MPs into groups, according to their leave / stay status and forcing them to talk. Ten groups should do it. Talk to each other,negotiate and to listen. Then getting them to present their ideas and proposals to work out a compromise (it will always be a compromise).

Rather like the EU operate.

WTO rules are fine for buying things but we need to sell things. We are an expensive country to buy from and have very few unique selling points.

PootlesBobbleHat
Welcome, please join in more.
With a No Deal, 'base rate' WTO tariffs apply from 30 March. A rough average of 10% hike in prices (some meats are 40%).
The EU has published an 'emergency plan' which suits them essentially, so it will be some flights, ferries and truck drivers will be covered by EU certificates etc.
Customs will probably not be covered but EU trucks with food can go to the UK, and it is up to HMRC to sort out getting taxes from them, but it could be that the UK will not be able to export in significant quantity, if at all.
It will be absolute chaos.
In terms of 'sticking it to the EU, I think of it as 1 person in a room with a hungry lion, you don't poke it with a stick!

I'm playing Brexshit Bingo on FB again this morning.

We can trade on WTO no problem- check
The EU are unelected- check
We won get over it - check
We're better off without them - check
Remainers are all wealthy left wing liberals who don't understand the poor - check

What's noticeably absent is 'they need us more than we need them' - presumably voting down the WA means a step up in propaganda for no deal, suggesting a new kind of deal is not sought because, hey, we don't need one.

I've already been for a an angry run. What more can I do? My clients will object if I start on the whiskey at this point of the day and if I did my headspace I'd chuck my ipad out of the window.

I tell you what I can’t listen to and that’s “we know what we voted for”. The only way that sentence can make sense is if they mean they wanted out of the EU at any cost - whether that’s financially, sovereignty, people’s lives, they don’t care, they want out no matter what.

There was no one version of Brexit on the ballot paper (another reason I voted to remain, it wasn’t clear what leaving would entail) so the only way that sentence makes sense is if leaving the EU is more important that having money or being alive. If lives are at risk, it’s not just other people’s lives - it’s theirs (and ours) too.

I have seen a lot of time spent on this thread and across the media listening to leavers.

I have to agree - I have seen leavers listened to over and over. And a lot of people pussyfooting around saying anything critical so they aren't seen as superior remoaners.

But a lot of the reasons I have seen given for voting leave are not due to the EU nor will they be solved by leaving. They are significant reasons for discontent, for a review of this country's inequality, for the government (or Westminster in general) to extend their focus - but they are fundamentally not down to the EU.

And that is what I disagree with. I am not invalidating their reasons or issues or problems from my liberal elite bubble. I just disagree that this has any way of addressing them.

Thanks LeClerc. I said tariffs would be approximately 10- 30% higher under WTO and maybe more for certain items.

But, you know...apparently that's not true (though I don't know where they're getting their superior knowledge from)...

We are not and cannot be better off outside the EU given the way the world works at the moment.

As MissMalice says, this is the way the world operates now. No deal is very scary. We have made a living being an English speaking gateway to the EU.