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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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Thread gallery
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BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 21:21

Yup, Customs would have to be at the UK and French ends, depedning on direction of travel
So HUGE delays and far fewer journeys

Ta1kinPeace · 14/01/2019 21:28

BigChoc
It has to besaid that the pro EU folks - largely funded by Soros - have spent a LOT more than the pro Brexit

Ta1kinPeace · 14/01/2019 21:29

Channel Tunnel
It has absolutely ZERO capacity for customs clearance space
Dover has the remnants, but the tunnel never had it

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 21:29

The Tory No-Dealers are as delusional and arrogant as ever

Bojo denies Brexit effects - claims he knows more about car manufacturing than JLR boss

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/14/boris-johnson-dismisses-brexit-claims-of-jaguar-land-rover-boss

... chief executive, Ralf Speth, also issued a stark warning about the effects of a no-deal Brexit, saying the company could stockpile enough parts to deal with only a few days of trade disruption.
.....
When the LBC radio host Nick Ferrari said Speth knew more about car manufacturing than Johnson, the MP responded:
“Well actually, it’s an interesting point. I’m not certain he does, by the way.” 🤯 🤦🏻‍♀️

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 21:31

Talkin Soros spends in the open
We don't even know all these secretive Leave backers, so we can't track if they've channelled more money via the DUP or other murky ways

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 21:40

Poundland Trump is at it again.

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
Former Foreign Sec Boris Johnson tells the House of Commons in Meaningful Vote the public will conclude “there is a plot by the deep state to frustrate Brexit”.

Johnson Quote is here: “we can’t delay A50 because After 2.5 years of procrastination the public would accuse of deliberately setting out to frustrate their wishes because the public would conclude there is a deliberate plot to kill Brexit”

Re procedural debates Johnson says “Public will see this stuff as public school debating school debating society chicanery designed to get round their wishes” said Johnson later

Sigh. Sadly it will work

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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 21:42

Lovely pics umpteen lovely cats.
This how my pup, no pup, feels about brexit, the same as she felt about her Xmas outfit.....depressed!

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 21:43

{Yup, Customs would have to be at the UK and French ends, depending on direction of travel
So HUGE delays and far fewer journeys}
I had not remembered about the customs aspect, thanks. I saw a fair while back that the French/Belgian stations were being rejigged to take customs controls, not sure how that might be progressing.

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 21:45

Sostenueto
The hat is OK but that coat may be bordering on animal cruelty, are you sure that isn't the problem? It should be blue with some stars on it although that might trigger abuse.

Ta1kinPeace · 14/01/2019 21:46

Sos
Cute pup

Ta1kinPeace · 14/01/2019 21:49

LeClerc
Is I'm sure I've said too many times
I used to work in customs clearance.

Every export consignment has to have a "T2" - a lorry can have up to 100 consignments on board.
Each T2 takes around 10 minutes to process.

Every import consignment has to have a "C88" - they take around 20 mins to check AND there have to be random checks.

We used to allow an hour per lorry .....
they currently work on 2 minutes ....

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 21:52

Harry Yorke @ harryyorke1
New: Corbyn set for confidence motion straight after tomorrow's vote
We're told plan is:
- Raise point of order minutes after result (if deal is rejected)
- Hold confidence vote after PMQs on Wednesday
- Heading to Amber Rudd's constituency Thurs (election starting gun?)

Corbyn's team not confirming or denying, but tonight Labour MPs told confidence motion coming very soon and they won't have to wait long.

As before, Labour will not 100% commit to it in case vote is closer than expected. (some suggestions May could lose by just 50-100 votes)

But Labour whips are preparing for Wednesday, which is earlier than the timetable being mapped out by Julian Smith, Government's chief whip, who reckons it will come on Wednesday.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/14/jeremy-corbyn-table-motion-no-confidence-moments-theresa-mays/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Jeremy Corbyn to table motion of no confidence moments after Theresa May's expected record defeat

Pippa Crerar @pippacrerar
NEW: Two shadow cabinet ministers have confirmed to me that this is the plan. Immediately means immediately, apparently.

Ffs.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:00

amp.ft.com/content/4a78d2d6-1822-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21?desktop=true&__twitter_impression=true
Dark mood descends on No 10 as Theresa May chases every vote
Senior Tories resigned to thumping defeat for PM on Brexit agreement

Even allowing for the management of expectations by Downing Street — Eurosceptic Tories put Mrs May’s likely margin of defeat at about 100— few Conservatives expect the prime minister and her deal to emerge unbloodied from the vote.

Over the weekend, Mrs May rang around 20 potential Tory waverers, urging them to support her, but the results were mixed to say the least; by Monday the number of Conservative critics publicly joining her camp could be counted on two hands.

One Tory MP, startled to receive a call from the prime minister as he lay in bed on Sunday morning, said he had not been persuaded to change his mind. “The numbers look bad,” said one of Mrs May’s allies.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:03

Tory graph prattling about the sovereignty of the people...

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:10

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: PM will try to force a second vote on her Brexit deal after being given fresh hope of new concessions by Angela Merkel. Duo agreed the need for “a blood-letting moment” first.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8194676/theresa-may-second-vote-brexit-deal/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
BREX FROM THE DEAD Theresa May will force SECOND vote on her Brexit deal despite facing huge defeat
Allies claim that German Chancellor Angela Merkel has offered Theresa May last minute help after saying the EU could grant extra concessions if MPs shoot down the her deal

And that could include persuading Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to agree to an end date to the hated Irish backstop – which the DUP and dozens of Tory MPs have demanded as their price.

A senior Government figure said the PM and Mrs Merkel agreed there needs to be “a blood-letting moment” first.

Dubbing the pair’s phone call on Sunday morning as “very positive”, the source added: “Merkel believes there is more the EU can do once the vote is over as no deal would be a disaster for everyone, and they agreed to talk after it”.

I read that and go 'really?'

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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 22:11

Name of pup is Cleopatra VIIth the amazing Queen of Kings. Batty name but she will soon start training for flyball and possibly agility if I can get her through the tunnel without ripping it up! Grin
Did anyone see points of order when an MP called for Mrs May to watch her language in her speech? ( can't remember MPs name).

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 22:12

{LeClerc
Is I'm sure I've said too many times
I used to work in customs clearance.}
I was thinking of passenger traffic, not freight. Yes of course freight will be hit badly.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:13

Steven Swinford @steven_swinford
New

Row brewing over Brexit plan B at Cabinet tomorrow

Eurosceptic ministers will warn PM that if she tacks to a soft Brexit she will have 'a fully-fledged revolt on her hands’

However pro-European ministers say they'll push the PM to back a Customs Union.

Cue fireworks...

I'm thinking the Merkel chat makes it easier to kill off an alternative plan b and easier for May to attempt a revote...
... Call me cynical

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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 22:13

See! I said about cloak and dagger stuff between EU and TM this morning! I always trust my gut feelings!

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:15

Steven Swinford @steven_swinford
Here's what one minister had to say:

‘If she tacks to softer Brexit she would have a fully-fledged revolt on her hands.

'There are many ministers who are supporting the deal but will not go any further.

‘Every vote she gains from Labour will be a vote lost from her own side’

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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 22:19

I think I better start a diary about brexit. I know its a bit late to start one but by the time its sorted I would have caught up writing about the last 2 years. After all, all I have to write on each page is ditto.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:20

Meanwhile

Parly @parlyapp
Government on course for a huge rejection of the withdrawal agreement in the Lords. Here’s the motion

I really hadn't considered how May gets the WA through the Lords. If she can't get it through the Commons how the hell does she get it through the Lords which has a Lab / Lib majority???!!!!

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 22:23

I think I better start a diary about brexit.

I appear to have unwittingly written one called Westminstenders!!!

The Times...

And I think I might head to bed on that note. Long day ahead tomorrow. Big Choc is on back up duty as I am in and out tomorrow.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 22:23

Good news on stocking up folks 6 tons of Heinz beans £2.50 at B &M and tin tomatoes 6 tins for £3 at Morrison's. Bought some for me, some for dds and some for food bank. Just where am I going to put all this stuff in a one bed tiny bungalow?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 22:24

If true - and not another No 10 invention - Merkel would have to persuade Varadkar first

  • sounds like she hasn't yet Would he agree ?

Ireland did a lot of diplomatic prep as soon as the ref happened, so they've amassed a lot of support from other EU countries
and nearly half the EU members are small countries.

So Varadkar would have to decide it's in Ireland's interest - most others wouldn't stand for Ireland being bullied

Any Westministender in Ireland with an opinion on what he'd decide ?

btw, The German public would likely be unhappy, if Merkel was thought in any way to be siding with Britain against Ireland

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