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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
Thread gallery
53
PCPlumsTruncheon · 14/01/2019 18:54

I haven’t caught up since yesterday but just wanted to share that I was listening to LBC and left it on when Farridge came on to do his show at 6pm. I took my blood pressure at 6.00 pm and it was 118/76.
I have just taken it again and it was 144/93!
I have been sitting perfectly still the whole time!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 18:54

Matthew O'Toole@MatthewOToole2 (ex-No 10 brexit & HMT)

Only question left is when will the DUP explicitly back no deal?
....
Nigel Dodds**@NigelDoddsDUP

Rather than reassure us, the Tusk and Juncker letter bolsters our concerns.

Quietrebel · 14/01/2019 18:55

OMG bigchoc!
This is no accident. How should people be told until they FINALLY believe it.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 18:57

red I think phones have been used for some years to coordinate riots

  • which of course is why the govt might switch off networks if we were getting uppity

Anyway re first riots:
food shortages without a doubt, because people would be desperate or at least panicking they were going to become desperate soon

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 18:59

However, switching off the networks would scare me personally far more.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 18:59

May is meeting Tory MPs tonight at 7pm. Being hosted by Brady.

To tell them all to vote for the WA I guess.

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nicoala1 · 14/01/2019 19:00

Still can't figure out on what basis an extension to A50 timetable will wash.

GE or PV maybe, but it is just ridiculous now.

Let the Tories have a riot and revoke A50 I say! Leave the rest of us safe in our beds with food to eat and medicines at hand.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:00

because one is incompetence; the other is enemy action

icannotremember · 14/01/2019 19:01

Pigeon fanciers are going to be very powerful people in a post Brexit dystopia

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:03

Nicola The EU has dropped umpteen hints / been anonymous sources the last few days,
saying they would consider extending to July to give May a chance to get the WA through

They really don't want No Deal
but if they think the Uk will spend the entire time trying to water down the backstop .....

Icantberudeitsmyjobatstake · 14/01/2019 19:08

I’ve name changed because I don’t want to be identified.
I’m going to change back to my usual name so I’m going to be sock puppeting myself.

A certain senior Tory is going to be at my work place on Friday. I have the opportunity to ask him a question. Any suggestions?

He is a Brexit supporter in a remain area.

Mrsr8 · 14/01/2019 19:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:28

Conservative Home say that the number of Tories voting against the deal is now down to 72 (down from 100)
However, with Labour whipping to vote against, plus almost all minor parties, she will still lose heavily

Icantberudeitsmyjobatstake · 14/01/2019 19:29

As you were everyone Mrs8 has given me some excellent ideas.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 19:30

Jim Pickard @PickardJE0
sticking my neck out and predicting that Corbyn will move a vote of no confidence in the government tomorrow night or early Wednesday
www.ft.com/content/efb7088a-17eb-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:30

Can he give 100% assurance that there will be no shortages of medicines or basic food supplies after a No Deal Brexit ?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:32

I thought Labour conference decided that they should try for an NC and GE
but if that failed, go for a PV ? 🤔

Corbyn really wants his Brexit, his chance at power, above all else

prettybird · 14/01/2019 19:34

Make sure your question is sufficiently specific and specifically excludes the excuse that he will no doubt spout.

Eg, How can he justify the claims that we send "vast amounts of money to the EU" when the 0.7% of GDP that it costs us is amply returned to us in the benefit to our GDP of membership of the EU's single market and that a No Deal Brexit could cost us up to 8% of our GDP."

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:34

Of course no MP will run short of food or meds - the subsidised restaurants and bars will run even if the rest of you are starving

So ask about ordinary people getting their food, meds, flights etc

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 19:34

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Amendments update

1. Rumours Hilary Benn may not put his amendment

2. Boles Letwin Cooper taking revocation of A50 final stage out of bill to increase possible support

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SusanWalker · 14/01/2019 19:35

Will he take responsibility if someone dies because of shortages in the event of a no deal?

Does he think that brexit voters will put up no deal disruption on the principle they voted for it or does he think they will blame the tories?

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 19:37

What is the bloody point of a NC vote when it's already clear you don't have the numbers for it and are falling behind in voter polls anyway???

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 19:42

{Switching off the Internet and the Phone Networks}
So that would be no rioting as people have lost the art of talking to each other. This would mean 16/17 million 'personal' riots!
Interesting slip there BCF, you have been pretty consistent 'we' but you say 'you' in your post mentioning restaurants.
Still, it's nice to come back here after some 'leaver baiting'. The penny isn't dropping that things might get bad and that leavers caused it.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 19:54

The Columnist @Sime0nStylites
1. I have little useful to say about the Meaningless Vote tomorrow. Everyone has known it will fail since at least the beginning of December. [Thread]

2. There’ll be much earnest talk about the scale of of the defeat. Is it 100 or 200 votes? Who cares. It’s going to be a big defeat by any measure and a historic loss for a vote of this importance.

3. The deal is dead. At least for now. The DUP will always vote against it. A hard core of say 40 Cons MPs will always vote against it. That’s more than enough without a large number of Labour votes.

4. Much more interesting is why the deal is dead. It’s not dead because of the transition period or the divorce bill or citizens rights. Contrary to popular belief it’s not dead because of the backstop.

5. It’s dead because Labour isn’t going to vote for it and that’s because it doesn’t pass Labour’s tests

6. We can make fun of the tests and laugh about unicorns etc but, quite apart from the fact that the time for jokes is over, the self evident truth is that Labour’s Brexit is much softer than TM’s.

7. Let’s assume, contrarily, that Labour doesn’t want a GE now. They shouldn’t, given the polls, their position in the HoC, and their own issues re Brexit.

8. Let’s also assume that no major constituency or stakeholder (including the PM, I suspect) wants No Deal and that there are sufficient levers to stop No Deal being a DELIBERATE policy objective.

9. This puts Labour in the awkward position of being the crux to finding a solution to the impasse.

10. If we take JC at his word, Labour’s plan will be to negotiate a better (or at least softer) Brexit.

11. There should be no reason why this can’t happen from an EU perspective. The PD can be amended, and, while this seems to be a controversial statement, the WA can also be amended for a BETTER Brexit (eg citz rights).

12. Typically, the problem is in the HoC not Brussels. A softer Brexit is likely to be opposed by both Cons Brexiteer MPs AND Second Referendum supporters on all sides.

13. This is a huge strategic mistake by 2nd referendum supporters. In a way analogous to Brexiteer MPs, their position is ultimately disadvantageous to their objective.

14. The problem is that neither softer Brexit advocates nor 2nd referendum supporters can win without each other. And in the absence of their mutual support, is is quite likely that TM’s deal wins in the end.

15 Both sides need to find a bridge to each other. An entente might work as follows. The first process and vote are to determine the desired (non unicorn) Brexit 2.0.

16. Post its negotiation (this thread will not discuss those ins and outs), there would be a second and free vote in the HoC to determine whether or not the new deal is ratified by a referendum.

17. In this way, both sides have an opportunity to get what they want. And if they can’t find a bridge? The result will either be TM’s Deal or No Deal. /ends

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 19:55

William Crawleyy@williamcrawley*

The PM tells Parliament: In the event of a No Deal Brexit, the EU confirms that it would require Ireland to carry out “checks on the border”.

< yes, under WTO terms and MFN terms of their FTAs with other countries, the EU must have secure borders with 3rd countries.
The alternative is either the EU dissolving its SM, or in effect Irexit >