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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 19:01

That Spectator article is simply bizarre.
The UK businesses just changing a bit of paperwork. Um, there are no significant new trade deals so why will they need paperwork?
Yes it will hurt EU industry so there will be disruption but,,,,,,,

Apileofballyhoo · 14/12/2018 19:02

As a history student I can't help but think that major upheavals like brexit are usually a precursor to something far worse...

Mrs8 this worries me too, more than anything. Do people get bored with peace?

Because British businesses will have made their preparations, and, just as crucially, European ones won’t have. ^The net result? The pressure on us will evaporate*

Absolutely fking bonkers.

usuallydormant · 14/12/2018 19:04

www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimedia/life-after-brexit_swiss-offer-a-hand-to-friendless-brexit-britain/44593580

Not sure if it will make you laugh or cry...

user1471453601 · 14/12/2018 19:05

There are very few things that make me grateful for being 70 and in not too good health, but brexit (and of course redtoothbrush), do. This is, to quote, an omnyshambles. Where we go to from here is anyone's guess. I feel like giving up on this country.

And don't get me started on the statistics that say, allegedly, how the ederley voted. We are NOT an omegenous group, we do still have our own minds.

If you didn't pick up on it, I'm bloody furious and have been for over two years.

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 14/12/2018 19:06

All the preparation that is now going ahead full steam costs money, money that the UK population will have to pay.in creased costs all over the place.
What is true is that even revoking tomorrow wouldn't undo all the damage that is being done to the economy at the moment.

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 19:08

Is that Spectator article an advert for more funding to MH services? People that delusional should be entitled to help and support.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 19:14

Missed this from this morning

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn
Last night’s #EUCO makes it clear Theresa May has run out of road. Any PM needs a new mandate to unblock Brexit deadlock.
Only 3 ways to do that;
1. Tory leadership contest
2. Second referendum
3. General Election

I wonder if the editorial for the sun will change to reflect this. The mail is now under a new editor. The Express was bought out. The Torygraph is still firmly Leave but much to say that all the media are shifting. Indeed the BBC seems to be behind the overall trend...

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lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 19:14

Well according to one observer of the conversation between May and the EU27 leaders,
she could not say what would actually deliver a majority in parliament for her”.

Why on earth could and should they start talks in the absence of knowing what May actually wants?

That's been the problem all along.

The people all want different things. The MPs want different things. The Leavers want different things.

Brexit was a new label for anything people wanted to it to mean - for some it represented an exit from potholes for others an exit from terrorists. The exercise literally encompassed the 'X' factor.

As the graphs show for a minority of about 6% ? the EU was their bug bear. For the others it was a symbolic word for a myriad of dissatisfactions. AND this is still the case.

May can't say what will deliver a majority because it's lots of mini minoritys.

MissMalice · 14/12/2018 19:20

So many Leavers I’ve sooken to voted to leave as a way to tell the UK government they weren’t happy with how this country is run. How can the EU help with that?!

GD12 · 14/12/2018 19:22

I've just had a conversation with someone who said admitted that here will be food and medicine shortages, planes stopping a recession etc etc but we're a hard working people and we'll get through it and then stop buying EU products and hurt them! WTAF is going on in this country?!

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 19:28

Well done for not saying "you're a fucking idiot"

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 19:29

Gd12 I can't process how dumb that is. My brain doesn't know where to put the info Confused hope for your sake it wasn't a face to face convo.

GD12 · 14/12/2018 19:30

It wasn't face to face. I don't get it, I'm totally baffled by it. I can only assume they don't actually think these things will happen.

borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 19:33

English Catholics are very different from Irish Catholics. There’s considerable snobbery involved, or there was when I attended a convent school run by a particularly posh order. The “serious” nuns, called Mother were overwhelmingly English. They lived lives of prayer cand contemplation, and taught (I was taught Biology by a nun who was forbidden by the Church to condone Darwin’s Theory). The “less serious” nuns, called Sister, were generally Irish and did the cooking, shopping and cleaning. Pupils from old English recusant families were made a great deal of, those of Irish background, not so much. (However the nuns did like pupils from European Catholic backgrounds, who were often a little bit aristocratic or just plain wealthy).
If JRM is really of Irish heritage, his posh act is an example of shameless Catholic social climbing.

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 19:35

My only conclusion GD is as a country we have more problems then we think? And maybe people need to eat more brain boosting foods...

PineappleSunrise · 14/12/2018 19:35

There are always those sorts of arseholes in every country. The difference is that right now the government is so morally and intellectually bankrupt they are willing to pander to them at the actual, material expense of the country as long as it keeps them in power for a bit longer.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 19:41

Why do the Tories let themselves be DUPed ?
(Answer: to stay in power)

Katy Hayward@hayward_katy

This can't be said loudly or often enough at the moment:

"Most people in Northern Ireland support the backstop"

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/most-people-in-northern-ireland-support-the-backstop/#.XBJNBgCzdWw.twitter

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 19:49

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-46574289?__twitter_impression=true
Brexit: Are cracks showing in Labour's referendum unity?

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LaBrujaPiruja · 14/12/2018 19:55

bellinisurge
Yes, JRM is Opus Dei.
Although I think St Josemaria wouldn't like him very much...
(This would really affect JRM, hehehe)

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 19:59

The Scottish Tories are preparing to back a second Brexit referendum

Pretty, mother Any comments ?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/scottish-tories-are-preparing-back-second-brexit-referendum#amp

Such is the disunity that the Scottish party may even declare independence from the UK Conservative
....
“When I look at what’s going on down south, I feel appalled and embarrassed,”
one prominent MSP tells me.
“I hate the English party.

I’m horrified at the support for no deal being expressed by party members"
......
Senior Scottish Tories < Hello Ruth, enjoying the maternity leave ? >
believe the UK is on a trajectory to crash out of the EU without a deal,
and that this could be fatal for the unity of the United Kingdom
.......
Scottish sources say that if the UK party elects an English nationalist leader – ie someone from within the ERG group – it would strain the bonds to breaking point.

It would also undermine the 2021 campaign
“if the Westminster Tories are as divisive and newsworthy at that point then it doesn’t matter what we do, we’re fucked,”

according to a key member of Team Davidson.

This, in turn, could lead to a formal breach, with the Scottish party choosing to break the link with the UK party and become independent.
“An increasing number of people at the top table think we need our independence,” says a senior MSP.
....
It remains unclear whether Brexit will destroy the integrity of the UK.

But it will be a tremendous irony if one of the first institutions to fall apart under its strain is the Conservative Party itself.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 20:03

LaBruja Opus Dei members are reported to "mortify their flesh" e.g. wearing sharp objects that bite into them

They are also supposed to give nearly all their wealth to Opus Dei.

If that's true, Opus Dei would be onto a very nice earner from Mogg's No Deal bonanza !

ElenadeClermont · 14/12/2018 20:04

I remember how upset people were about the young Labour minister Ruth Kelly being Opus Dei.

LaBrujaPiruja · 14/12/2018 20:10

BigChocFrenzy
Yes, I attended an Opus Dei secondary school for a few years and we had a History teacher who would tell us about it. She used a spiked belt... She looked pretty normal from the outside....

LaBrujaPiruja · 14/12/2018 20:10

Btw, this was in Spain, late 80s, don't know many of them here so cannot confirm if they are all this mad or not!

borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 20:14

So it’s clear that Brexit is an Opus Dei plot to simultaneously enrich itself and recatholicise the U.K. with JRM at the helm.

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