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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 20:21

The nuns at my school were users of the cilice for self mortification. That, in an all female community, with regular fasting (including pupils on occasion) and a sense of poorly suppressed sexuality, made it a very unpleasant place in which to spend one’s teenage years.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 20:21

Ah, I'd forgotten the furore about Ruth Kelly being in Opus Dei.
whereas even most of us here didn't know about Mogg - i had wondered, since he seemed so odd !

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 20:22

no, it's a plot to get rich quick

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 20:23

Alastair Campbell :
"it may be time to face up to the fact that Labour under Jeremy Corbyn will do everything to make sure a People's Vote won't happen".

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 20:27

Anyone got a good link for Opus Dei? Never heard of it and wiki was sparse.

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 20:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EtVoilaBrexit · 14/12/2018 20:28

As a history student I can't help but think that major upheavals like brexit are usually a precursor to something far worse....

Mrs8 yes I agree with that too :(

ElenadeClermont · 14/12/2018 20:29

I doubt many people would follow JRM into Catholicism. Pope Francis is a much better ambassador.

I know nothing about Opus Dei, but I always thought it was masons for Catholics. Our priest used to spend hours slagging off freemasons. It was in Hungary where there were literally no freemasons at all. None of us had a clue what he was on about.

DoctorTwo · 14/12/2018 20:30

A precis of a conversation I had with a Brexiteer today:-

Him "I believe we'll be ok"
Me: "What do you base that on, evidence wise?"
"Oh, we'll go back to manufacturing."
"Fair enough, most, if not all of our manufacturing is JIT, they'll just relocate to avoid delays, how are you going to get around that?"
"We'll start new manufacturing industries"
"Ok, who are we going to sell this stuff to?"
"Whoever wants to buy it!"
"You mean nobody, because they're already making it better and cheaper than us, right?"
"They need us more..."
"Oh do fuck off you ignorant twat!"

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 20:30

I wiki'd better controversies about Opus dei is much more informative en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_Opus_Dei

Talkinpeece · 14/12/2018 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 20:42

Did you just call the people of Jaywick peasents? Hmm

I don't have a degree and I live off benefits should I not get a vote either?

Reporting...

BestIsWest · 14/12/2018 20:46

At least it’s Friday so I can have Gin

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 20:49

I’ve heard the ‘we’ll go back to manufacturing’ many times now.

I say to those twatters - surely if we were to do that we should build up our manufacturing first so that this transition that doesn’t nuke the economy? The same determination was made after the financial crisis with the general consensus that we don’t make and sell enough. Its been 10 years and where is this manufacturing revolution?

Economists for Brexit twat in chief Minford predicated his free trade Brexit model on the decimation of manufacturing in the U.K..

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 20:52

A precis of a conversation I had with a Brexiteer today:-

Him "I believe we'll be ok"
Me: "What do you base that on, evidence wise?"
"Oh, we'll go back to manufacturing."

It's an obsession. FIL regularly says

" Don't get me started' they' should never have ket manufacturing go."

If you point out to FIL that his DC (including DH) work in financial services (which is 80% of the economy) and this is now in jeopardy, he still insists manufacturing is more important! Presumably more important than his DCs livelihoods.

tinnedtomatoes30 · 14/12/2018 20:54

‘we’ll go back to manufacturing’
Didn't see these fuckwits during the Miners Strike.
Presumably because they are fuckwits.
And men, of course. Grin

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 21:01

Yes, I don't remember Tories coming out to support mining communities in the miners' strike.
Perhaps I'm misremembering but I think it was the complete fecking opposite.

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 14/12/2018 21:04

The only manufacturing I know about is planning a massive reduction in the UK with new lines opened in other factories in EU. Because currency fluctuation, lack of ability to easily export to the rest of the EU and lack of clarity about the future more than offset the benefits of employing people paid in a weak pound.

festivedogbone · 14/12/2018 21:05

PMK - this thread is filling up fast!

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 21:06

Nick Boles MP @ nickboles
The events of last week mean that Theresa May needs to stop thinking of herself as a Prime Minister at the head of a single party government and more like a US President trying to build a congressional coalition for a major legislative reform.

She controls a block of roughly 200 votes in the Commons. To get a Brexit deal (and the associated legislation) through, she needs to be able to reply on the support of 320 MPs (to allow for some inevitable attrition)

What sort of compromise could secure the additional 120 votes she needs? Norway Plus? Second referendum? Permanent customs union? Or some combination?

The best that can be said for the EU Council is this: hopefully this is the last time that Theresa May tries to go it alone. Next week she must open cross-party discussions, and if Corbyn won’t play ball, talk to SNP, Plaid Cymru and backbench Labour MPs

Laura Kuenssberg@bbclaurak
This may be the tone of a LOT that happens in the next week maybe even from members of the Cabinet

At this stage, realistically there isn't an alternative.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 21:12

Brexit MEPs do seem careless with money
After Farage & UKIP being fined ....

Daniel Hannan's MEP group told to repay €535,000 in EU funds

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/daniel-hannan-mep-group-told-to-repay-half-a-million-in-eu-funds

Among parliament’s objections was €250,000 spent on a three-day event at a luxury beach resort in Miami.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 21:16

OMG a Miami jolly -and they bang on about EU profligacy.

jasjas1973 · 14/12/2018 21:31

This is from a brexitier who posted on FB in regard to how the EU has destroyed our manufacturing base..... He is a a former Head of Dept at my local Comp (retired) so sitting pretty on a nice pension.

Seeing this shows that the EU have aided, funded, the stripping of the UK of virtually all it's income and work generating capacity! WE need to rebuild Britain and make our Country Great again. We are not going to be able to do that in the EU. Just walk away

Beggars belief how intelligent people see something on FB and automatically assume it must be true, where as something on CH4 or BBC is Project fear and total bollox!

prettybird · 14/12/2018 21:32

BigChoc - I don't really know enough about the Scottish Conservative Party Wink - not a party I have ever wanted to be close to Wink

I have a vague recollection that it was once separate to the English Conservative Party (I've not googled to check).

It would surprise me if Ruth Davidson was supporting a 2nd Brexit Referendum as it would open her up to charges of hypocrisy with regard to her intractable opposition to Indyref2. But when has that stopped politicians? Hmm

There are some of the Tory MPs who are viscerally against the WA because it retains EU access to the Scottish UK fishing waters (and the massive negative effect on 0.04% of our GDP Confused). They are in marginal seats though (at least one of them coastal) so they might be cynically jumping on the bandwagon.

Dh has also told me that there have been done recent surveys that have suggested that the Tories and Labour are facing meltdown again with the electorate and in a GE could end up back at 56 (or more) SNP MPs, with only Ian Murray surviving again for Labour in Edinburgh and possibly Fluffy as the sole Tory. I've not seen these polls though, so can't comment further (will go away and investigate Wink)

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2018 21:45

it's

Deputy head and he can’t punctuate let alone get his facts straight about Europe.

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