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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 17:49

So JRM is ok with a hard border

I've got confused thoughts circulating about JRM and Ireland...following on from the discussions dipping into religion yesterday. How do JRMs deep faith and Catholicism and moving of his funds to Dublin? Fit together ? "You cannot serve both God and mammon." ...can't quite unravel it all.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:49

The US suspends treaties it doesn't like, such as those signed by previous presidents
e.g. Trump & the Iran nuclear treaty

They just use trumped up grounds - and Trump is not the first POTUS to do that.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:50

"You cannot serve both God and mammon."

JRM can. Because he's a cunt.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:50

Brexit: It's an education, innit ?

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:51

Correction

Brexit: It's an education for some, innit ?

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 17:54

Speaking as a Catholic with an Irish Mammy, JRM is the worst kind of Catholic. Self righteous twat.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:56

imo, May would never break or pull out of the GFA, because that is too blatant and would bring a shotstrom upon the UK and her.

However, Mogg and many other leading Brexiters are too ignorant / entitled / dishonest to be bound by treaties
and as mentioned, many of them hate the GFA because they think it gave too much to the IRA

  • another Brexiter myth is that the IRA were on the verge of military defeat, so the UK should have stepped up military action 🤦🏻‍♀️
BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:56

shotstrom shitstorm !

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 17:58

JRM is Catholic?! Thought he was church of England. Showing my biase I assume posh = church of England. Live and learn. What the hell does he say in confession? Probably in there all day....

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:59

Bellini There are nasty shits in all religions and among atheists & agnostics too.
No sane person would judge Catholics now by the batshittery of the MP representing the 19th century

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:59

another Brexiter myth is that the IRA were on the verge of military defeat, so the UK should have stepped up military action

It was stalemate - both sides knew that in the 70s.

The British governments refusal to negotiate could be considered to have led to innocents deaths that could have been avoided. Something I've borne in mind for many many years. My government (of all stripes) was quite happy to parade a hypocritical stance over it's citizens lives. And still is.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 18:10

I was just googling trying to find out what the Irish press thought of JRM moving his money to Dublin. I found this article instead - I wasn't aware of this protest at Stormont (with JRM masks!).

I find Ireland so hard to understand but instinctively feel its wrong that everyone hadn't got Stormont up and running first.

I suppose the DUP would never want to work to restore Stormont now anyway- they've no incentive at all? Which is all the more reason why the gov should have put in more effort to do so. .. but they've no incentive either as they need the DUP?

Corbyn can't try and encourage it's restoration either as it would revive his past accusations? So no one has an incentive do they ? Other than the people? Confused.

m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/theresa-may-must-break-up-toxic-marriage-with-dup-sinn-fein-37430694.html

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:16

Wow, has public sentitment has finally swung to Remain ?

Richard Corbett@RCorbettMEP

YouGov latest polling data on #Brexit (@PeterKellner1 letter in Times)

(%,excl Don’tKnows)

If choice is Remain v May’s deal: Remain wins 62-38.

If choice is Remain v no-deal: Remain wins 57-43

In a 3-way choice:
Remain 54
leaving with no deal 28
leaving with May’s deal 18

OhYouBadBadKitten · 14/12/2018 18:17

JRM prefers the Tridentine rites of Mass. Said in Latin, priest facing away from the congregation, women are expected to wear a mantilla. It's very exclusionary and its not a catholicism I recognize in the modern day church, it was replaced by Vatican II in the 1960s.

It's not very Catholic of me, but it's another reason why I dislike him so very much.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:19

lonely The DUP don't want it back, partly because it might mean an investigation of their many murky practices,
including the Cash for Ash scandal.

Anyway, so long as the Tories need them to prop up their minority govt, they just phone up May when they want something,
instead of having to win votes in the NI Assembly

MissMalice · 14/12/2018 18:20

It’s horrifies me how many people are willing to go for a no deal situation.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:21

Blimey, kitten Has he found a fellow fan of the obsolete to actually do mass like that ?

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 18:24

I'm guessing he's an Opus Dei weirdo. The kind most Catholics steer clear of.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:43

Spectator article claiming the cliff edge will be more a problem for the EU than the UK 🤦🏻‍♀️

Problem is, many Brexiters în the HoC and the media still believe this delusional mania
and this filters down to the general public
Hence the % in polls who still want No Deal

There will be businesses in both the UK & the EU that haven't prepared for No Deal,
but at least the EU - and the most affected countries - have been giving clear stakeholder notices for over a year.

Some UK businesses are in total denial, for political reasons / cowardice

So it seems much more likely that UK business is less prepared than the EU
Also, all their markets are likely to be affected, not just the EU

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-myth-of-the-brexit-cliff-edge/amp/?twitterr_impression=true

In fact, the closer we get to March 29 next year without securing a deal, the less of a problem it becomes.

By the middle of February, it may hardly matter at all. 🤦🏻‍♀️
Why?
Because British businesses will have made their preparations, and, just as crucially, European ones won’t have.
^The net result? The pressure on us will evaporate. 🤦🏻‍♀️

whymewhynow · 14/12/2018 18:46

Some polling on that
Richard Corbett
Richard Corbett
@RCorbettMEP
YouGov latest polling data on #Brexit (
@PeterKellner1
letter in Times)

(%,excl Don’tKnows)

If choice is Remain v May’s deal: Remain wins 62-38.

If choice is Remain v no-deal: Remain wins 57-43

In a 3-way choice:
Remain 54
leaving with no deal 28
leaving with May’s deal 18

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:49

Robert Peston's staggering claim why the talks with leaders failed

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/theresa-may-now-faces-a-humiliating-choice-over-brexit/amp/?twitterr_impression=true

Here is the measure of Theresa May’s failure last night, according to an observer of her request to EU leaders for “assurances” that UK membership of the EU backstop would be finite and of short duration.

They were ready to help.

They assumed a process of officials agreeing a text over coming week would start today, to give her the necessary words that would persuade Tory and DUP critics of her deal to ultimately support it.

But it was during the course of questioning her that they concluded such a process – such an extension of talks – would be a total waste of time.
Why?
Well according to one observer of the conversation between May and the EU27 leaders,
“she could not say what would actually deliver a majority in parliament for her”. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Why on earth could and should they start talks in the absence of knowing what May actually wants? 🤦🏻‍♀️

< "nebulous" was incredibly polite >

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 18:54

Mogg:

"We have a choice. Either she behaves like Margaret Thatcher or she behaves like John Major and leads the Conservative Party to a terrible defeat.

I hope the men in grey suits will apply the clothes brush, put them on and head into No 10 shortly."

< And a Brexiter PM would win ? I hope the men in white coats apply a straitjacket on Mogg shortly >

Hasenstein · 14/12/2018 18:55

What a pile of unmitigated crap that Spectator article is. Just unsubstantiated claims of how wonderfully prepared we are, while the Europeans stumble around in the dark without having done anything to prepare themselves.

Just more "we're the best" delusion.

jasjas1973 · 14/12/2018 18:58

Also BCF it must cross their minds that if TM can't get this deal through the 'commons (which atm she cannot) what then?

..... a revoke? a PV ? a softer still EFTA style agreement? she def wont want to go down as the PM who took the UK out on a no-deal !!! despite what the Spectator says lol!

So, if those polls are anything to go on (and i saw a different one which gave Remain a 12pt lead) then brexit may well not even happen.

As they say on FB, "feeling optimistic"

Quietrebel · 14/12/2018 19:01

For anyone still in doubt over motivation of hard brexiteers such as JRM:

thelondoneconomic.com/news/jacob-rees-mogg-line-huge-personal-windfall-britain-exits-single-market/07/02/?utm_source=marfeelpush