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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:08

A PV would almost inevitably have No Deal as an option.

Personally, I would suggest that given No Deal pretty much breaks the GFA, it should not be allowed as an option for the public to vote on. If it is, why can't we start voting on other treaties we don't like. After all "will of the people" and all that bollocks.

You can't even refuse it by saying "well that's what parliament is for" since parliament will have abrogated it's role 3 times in 7 years.

Why not have a referendum on abolishing poverty, gravity or MacCavity

(sorry, had a fit of the Eliots there)

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:12

1. What is the Government doing to ensure our rights as set out in equality, employment and human rights legislation are protected?

At a guess. Fuck all.

2. How will the UK replicate violence against women and girls ( V A WG) protections and sustain funding currently provided by the EU?

It won't.

3. What measures will the Government be taking to ensure we are keeping pace with the EU to maintain gender equality?

See #1

4. How will the Government ensure the EU Settlement Scheme works for vulnerable women and girls and what exemptions will be made for them?

See #2

5. How will the Government ensure that the economic impact of Brexit does not have serious implications for women?

#2 (again)

6. What is the Government doing to ensure that women are represented at every level of the Brexit negotiation and transition process?

See #1 (again).

The problem with questions like that, is they are predicated upon the idea that the government wants to do something. Whereas the past ... well all of my life it's been obvious that the government doesn't want to do anything. And when it does, it's grudgingly and (as we are now finding out) with it's fingers crossed behind it's back.

I just hope we're in a "one step back" phase in order to take "two steps forward" ... (thank you Uncle Joe ...)

Mistigri · 14/12/2018 17:14

Personally, I would suggest that given No Deal pretty much breaks the GFA, it should not be allowed as an option for the public to vote on

I think this is an excellent point. Politically I don't think it is tenable to hold a referendum without a no deal option. But no deal involves the UK breaking the terms of an international treaty. You can't reasonably put something to the people knowing that to be the case.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:17

Maybe I should take over Brexit ? All this talk of a second vote, and no one else spots a flaw in voting for "no deal" ?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:18

A PV would only happen if the HoC won't pass the WA and then they and / or May won't take responsiblity for what to do next.

i.e. dithering & arse-covering, which is why it remains a possibility
Also, if a PV produced a large majority for Remain, it would give more authority than May Revoking - and being forced out after a year (or less)

However, if Cadalladr has found the Russians stirring up both sides - which they've done to destabilise other countries - then PV could go badly wrong.

Moussemoose · 14/12/2018 17:18

Does breaking the GFA constitute breaking international law?

Mistigri · 14/12/2018 17:21

The GFA is an international treaty. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how these things are enforced.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:24

Does breaking the GFA constitute breaking international law?

Unless anyone corrects me, I'm pretty certain the GFA ("Belfast Agreement") is registered with the UN as a bilateral peace Treaty. (Fascinating discussion elsewhere on MN where a lot of folk are only just discovering the GFA is a peace treaty). So yes, it's international law.

Imagine if Spain held a referendum asking the Spanish "Should Spain annex Gibraltar ?" - there'd be uproar before a vote was cast, since to enact the outcome of the referendum (especially if it's advisory Grin) would require breaking the Treaty of Utrecht.

And nobody wants that. Primarily because of all the history you'd need to learn.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:25

then PV could go badly wrong.

You do find yourself asking if we'd notice.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:26

Legally, any country can formally end a treaty - if it is prepared to face the consequences.
The GFA has no penalty clauses

I read one legal opinion that there would probably need to be 12 months notice to the UN and the RoI, under the UN Vienna Convention on the law of treaties

However, the UK's (remaining) reputation would be hammered, the EU - and probably many other countries - wouldn't agree to any trade deals

So, it is a "possible" option, just a disastrous one for the UK
(although I'm not sure if anything could actually make No Deal worse than it would be even if the GFA didn't exist)

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 17:26

{Does breaking the GFA constitute breaking international law?}
Apart from legality it would be a massive black stain on the UK's CV when it comes to negotiating anything although there are a handful of countries who might not mind.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:28

The UK couldn't actually "break" the GFA, or it would basically be an outlaw state
However, formal notice of withdrawal, to the UN and the other parties involved, is possible for any treaty

GD12 · 14/12/2018 17:28

Sinn Fein have already stated that in the event of a no deal they will ask for a border poll. Can you imagine the chaos that will start from all that?! Jesus.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:30

Since we are in historical mode (surely Brexiteers must be getting a semi ?) has the UK/Britain/England ever broken a treaty in "modern times" ? Which I guess could be since the Treaty of Utrecht, since we expect the Spanish to abide by it (indeed it arguably shaped modern Europe).

So that'll be 1715 then - 304 years.

Has the UK (which existed back then) ever broken a Treaty since then ?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:31

and yes, the GFA is registered at the UN as an international treaty:

https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

I've posted before that the GFA text assumes both the RoI & the UK would remain EU members.

In the preamble before article 1:

"Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours
and as partners in the European Union"

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:35

Tx BCF !

EtVoilaBrexit · 14/12/2018 17:35

However, the UK's (remaining) reputation would be hammered, the EU - and probably many other countries - wouldn't agree to any trade deals
Which then raise another issue.
How can the uk getball the nice FTA it’s supposed to do if it’s seen as the outcast by the rest of the international community.

What is the precedent in that? A well known country who has decided to break a peace treaty knowing it is dong so (so nit an accident) and having repeated that itbwasnt a big issue anyway?
And then how was that country treated?

GD12 · 14/12/2018 17:36

^^^Nevermind the 39bn the UK would hold back in a no deal.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:36

We have withdrawnfrom treaties and suspended them too.

iirc, the treaty with Belgium, one of our oldest and which caused us to enter WW1,
was suspended temporarily sometime in the 19th century,
because Britain didn't want to be drawn into a war then

I suspect too, like some other current / former world powers, we have broken terms of some treaties, when we could get away with it - i.e. when the other parties were less powerful

The RoI now has the EU as its 500lb gorilla, so Mogg & co - with their suggestions to search people, not just trucks near the border - had better watch out

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 17:37

EtVoila The same delusional thought process as before - we're British; our willy is the biggest, they need us more ....

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:40

Ah, in which case, didn't the UK have a treaty to ally with Czechoslovakia just before Hitler invaded ?

I've always felt we had a debt of honour over that. Presumably all the WW2-fetishising Brexiteers also are keen to ensure we do right by them. Especially when you consider what happened to them as a result.

I guess it's lucky we were on the right side of history ?

Interesting to note how the US avoids signing too many treaties ...

Loletta · 14/12/2018 17:42

Thanks hazardswan Thanks
So JRM is ok with a hard border Shock

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 17:48

www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/theresa-mays-allies-second-referendum-brexiteer-suicide?ref=hpsplash

In summary (while cooking so half arsed)
TM's allies (ha she has them?!) wanting second ref, JC is starting to worry them with the threat of no confidence.

loletta Your welcome 😊