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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 17/12/2018 16:24

I feel really assured (not) that they are thinking of sorting this out, but they haven't done it yet.

Wasn't some politician on a week or so back telling us that aviation was sorted? Now they are thinking about it.

UnnecessaryFennel · 17/12/2018 16:29

She really is running down the clock, isn't she? Potentially she could take the vote right up to the 21st Jan deadline. Watching the Commons now; there is real anger about her constant delaying tactics from both sides.

Why on earth does she think it's ok for the House to fuck off on holiday and leave the country in limbo for 2 weeks??

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 16:33

Watching the Commons now; there is real anger about her constant delaying tactics from both sides

and ?

Be nice if they fucking did something. We're all angry. But only 650 people can actually do something about it.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 16:34

{Why on earth does she think it's ok for the House to fuck off on holiday and leave the country in limbo for 2 weeks??}
Like the summer recess.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 16:35

.

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..
UnnecessaryFennel · 17/12/2018 16:36

Just making an observation DGR Hmm

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 16:37

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 16:40

In a similar theme to that pic, the hotel in Hull that has cancelled the booking made by a charity for homeless that had reserved 14 rooms for some homeless people for Christmas eve and boxing day. I hope the hotel gets truly roasted.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 16:46

I hope the hotel gets truly roasted.

Be careful in these days of heightened sensibilities that isn't reported to "the authorities" ....

We all need to be careful of the words we choose ......

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 16:46

Howabout is a poster who has always been reasonable

I don't think it's reasonable to suggest checks between ROI and rEU just so that post brexit Britain doesn't have to put up with checks between NI/rUK.

I think it's arrogant and ignorant and no better than anything the most frothing hardnut brexiteer might come out with.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 16:47

What I want to happen:

  • The HoC votes on the WA

  • If that fails, they vote on Remain
    Yes, I know only May can revoke, but if they vote for it, it might persuade her

  • If Remain fails, then they vote on No Deal
    This is necessary, because otherwise it would become the default

  • If that fails too, then they ask the EU to extend on a PV, with all 3 options

Motheroffourdragons · 17/12/2018 16:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Apileofballyhoo · 17/12/2018 16:51

That sounds reasonable BCF.

howabout · 17/12/2018 16:51

Not put off at all Mother and found our exchange of views interesting. On Scottish Independence the SNP tax divergence strategy is throwing up lots of inconsistencies which have always been obvious to me and which make the current settlement unstable. Lots of Constitutional issues also coming out of the EU withdrawal process. Not sure where I would land if there were Indyref2 and no attempt to rectify the issues. At least the debate would be more honest if EU membership of the UK as a whole were not being used as an insurance policy - both sides were guilty of this last time.

To preserve my sanity I engage with some posters selectively. Descending to derisory insults is an admission of having lost the argument.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 16:59

+ If Remain fails, then they vote on No Deal
This is necessary, because otherwise it would become the default

So why do you need a vote ? It just happens.

WhatdoImean · 17/12/2018 17:05

I think to make it clear that who has voted for it, and who against. If the majority vote against it, it is a clear statement for a PV I think.

If some people vote for it, AND it happens.... I think their chances of re-election are slight...

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 17/12/2018 17:14

pretzel a small nit picking point, the vote cannot be said to have GB rather than UK because NI voted against it as Scotland also voted against it. The vote either has to be UK or England and Wales.

On the issue of the hotel having worked in social care I actually have a lot of sympathy for the hotel, the job of running a homeless shelter is a complex and at times difficult one. Expecting hotel staff to manage it for a period of time without any training doesn't strike me as being very sensible. People's ire should be directed at the government for failing to fund local councils ending up in a crisis in accommodation for vulnerable people.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:18

DG We need the 3rd vote, on the No Deal, because that would indeed otherwise happen
if it's voted down, that that justifiies the PV to resolve the logjam

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 17:20

but I wouldn't assume the person writing it was either arrogant or ignorant

well - as you said to BCF over something else: we will have to respectfully agree to disagree Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:21

The EU is NOT using NI as leverage

This is a common illusion that many Brexiters have, because they can't face the idea that Ireland, whom they bullied for 800 years, now has the whiphand.

So they have to blame the EU bogeyman instead

It's just supporting its member country, Ireland, the same as it will support Spain re Gibraltar and France etc over fishing.

Ireland has made it clear that the backstop is essential for them to agree a WA, or a future trade deal,
whereas Spain, France to date haven't made their issues a sticking point.

Even before the ref, the RoI was visiting the Commission to get support
After the ref, they used all their diplomatic skills to gain support from other EU governments too

Nearly half the EU's members are small countries, so they would always tend to support Ireland during Brexit,
just in case they themselves ever got in a dispute with a much bigger country.
Also, Ireland can veto any future trade deal, so it's pointless - even if legally possible by QMV - for the other members to override them on the WA.

Successive Irish governments showed similar diplomatic skills during the Troubles, especially in the USA,
where they were able to exert great pressure on the UK via successive US administrations, who weren't prepared to offend the powerful Irish American lobby

Of course, much pressure was also applied by the IRA's massively expensive bombings in the City of London,
which caused some leading financial institutions to warn the govt they would pull out of the UK if this continued for long.

However, it was US pressure that forced successive UK govts to make concessions they didn't want, at various stages of the GFA negotiations and before.
DUP Unionists - and iirc Trimble himself - were furious at the UK concessions, but Trimble was forced to accept them.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 17:24

a small nit picking point, the vote cannot be said to have GB rather than UK because NI voted against it as Scotland also voted against it. The vote either has to be UK or England and Wales.

Yeah, I knew as I wrote it I was being unfair to Scotland - but I was referring to Britain as a landmass rather than a country -if that makes sense? UK isn't a landmass and didn't vote for brexit because the part that makes it UK rather than Britain voted remain. Britain is a landmass and it did (even though Scotland, London, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool etc did not)

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 17/12/2018 17:25

I agree with that bigchoc it needs to be super clear that a no deal exit is against the will of Parliament so that it isn't allowed to happen by default.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:26

I always thought that Trimble - with his sectarian record - getting the 1998 Nobel peace prize was ridiculous,
but they had to include him in order to award it to John Hume, without offending the Unionist side.

I certainly wouldn't trust anything he says about international law (or anything else)
He knows bugger all about international trade

A far more knowledgeable source on why leaving the SM means border controls is veteran Leaver Richard North:
He has also comprehensively debunked - with links to sources - the Unionist poster Tony NE several times when he claimed the same as howabout (and Trimble)

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:30

I want the HoC to vote on ALL the available options, until they either approve one of them,
or have to turn to a PV.

For me, PV means that the HoC and May have failed in their duty, so I hope we don't come to that

However, relying on May to revoke at the 59th minute is too dangerous:
She keeps proving her stubbornness
and her summit debacle also indicated she is deep in denial and delusion

GD12 · 17/12/2018 17:36

Anyone else think May wants a no deal and is just running the clock down? It's the only answer to all of this.

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