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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:54

Unfortunately, the UK govt have squabbled with each other for so long, that there seems no other way to negotiate this very soft frictionless Brexit except via the only existing WA.

If it is a choice of the WA or No Deal, I would definitely rather have the WA

There is of course the school of thought that No Deal would be so dreadful that the UK would apply to Rejoin within months.
However, that is a huge risk - and would have dreadful consequences in the interim.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 14:01

I have a feeling that with so much unpleasantness and namecalling, principally by the UK government that following a no deal departure the bar for reentry would go up a bit. Losing the rebates for a start. Probably not the Schengen and use of the Euro though.The UK needs to demonstrate it really wants to be in the EU, and at present it is failing massively, backed up by 40 odd years of whining.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 14:04

With a No Deal Brexit, it is quite likely that Scotland wouldn't put with decline for very long before voting for independence and joining the EU itself

NS is actually being surprisingly principled by pushing for Remain !

Peregrina · 17/12/2018 14:16

{The UK is well suited to this outer ring}

We've been there before - with the original 6 of the EEC and EFTA. We decided then that it didn't work for us. Gradually nearly all the other EFTA countries decided that it didn't work for them either.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 14:23

There is a children's rhyme with the words' Come with a bat, come with a ball, come with a goodwill or not at all'.
The UK definitely fails on the goodwill element, which is of course a tragedy for all the brilliant collaborative projects that it has with the EU and great international friendships.

howabout · 17/12/2018 14:27

Icantreach the Backstop suggests exactly this arrangement for within the UK. If you can see how ridiculous it is in relation to Ireland and EU26 then surely you can see it is even worse between NI and rUK?

My contention is that no such additional borders are necessary in any event because the existing arrangements can accommodate the faux concerns of Remainers. Save your righteous indignation for someone of a less temperate disposition.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 14:34

"My contention is that no such additional borders are necessary in any event because the existing arrangements can accommodate the faux concerns of Remainers. Save your righteous indignation for someone of a less temperate disposition."

Guessing you aren't old enough to remember life before GFA. Or you are old enough but don't give a shiny shit.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 14:36

Yes howabout of course I can see that it is a ridiculous situation between ruk and NI. The difference between rUK/NI and ROI/rEU is THAT WE VOTED TO FUCKING DO IT! it is the natural consequence of an unbelievable stupid decision that we as a sovereign nation has made. And the ROI and the EU should not be expected (and absolutely will not) to put borders in between themselves just because the UK voted to do a stupid and harmful thing. Accept the consequences of your own disastrous decision.

You cannot be that wilfully stupid that you cannot understand all this.

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 17/12/2018 14:49

As another Scot I am in agreement with mother. The total disregard shown to Scotland by every other part of the U.K. has persuaded me over the last two years that Scotland despite the obvious difficulties it would face would actually be better outside of the U.K.
We have no power, no influence and no external groups looking out for us. A sea border or a different regulatory system would put Scotland at a huge economic disadvantage and we voted for exactly the same outcome as NI.
I do understand that political history of NI, very few in Glasgow have no knowledge of this but this solution would create more injustices in future.

ElenadeClermont · 17/12/2018 14:49

David Cameron 'advising Theresa May on options' if deal rejected
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394

Is this a joke?

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 14:55

Hot off the press, a missive from Mr Grayling:

{As you will already be aware, both the UK and the EU have made clear their desire to ensure flights between the UK and EU continue in any scenario. I believe both the UK and the EU have a determination to retain the aviation links which bring such significant economic and cultural benefits for both sides.
Indeed the UK made this clear in its technical notice on air services for flights to and from the UK published on 24 September. And the EU set out its intention to ensure this outcome in a Commission communication on 13 November.
This department fully recognises the importance of giving passengers and businesses confidence to book their holidays and business trips to and from the EU after Brexit.
So as I mentioned at the last industry roundtable, we are exploring what communications will be needed to provide that reassurance. I would like to continue to work with you on precisely this in the coming days.
I hope this provides you with some reassurance and look forward to further discussions with you in the coming weeks and months.}

I feel really assured (not) that they are thinking of sorting this out, but they haven't done it yet.

howabout · 17/12/2018 15:03

belini I was working in Belfast when the GFA was signed. Shock

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 15:06

Then @howabout why are you willing to risk GFA?
What is the technological solution that ERG have been claiming exists. Even the lightest touch smart border requires some infrastructure- an ANPR camera is infrastructure. If that solution is just around the corner we won't need the backstop.

YeOldeTrout · 17/12/2018 15:06

I don't see how we can 'lose' the rebates if we just revoke A50. They are there for us in treaty.

It's going forward getting further concessions in future treaties where UK would have lost influence & good will with rEU.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 15:16

YeOld
I was referring to having left then wanting back in again at some point.
Revoking, yes we keep the cuddly toy and teasmaid.

howabout · 17/12/2018 15:21

Using NI as a leveraging chip in the negotiation is what poses the risk to the GFA, especially if the solution is unsustainable. The UK should have declined to engage on that basis right from the start.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 15:27

But NI isn't being used as a leveraging trick. We have an obligation under GFA not to fuck up GFA. It's an international agreement. Not saying there isn't a solution where can Brexit and maintain our responsibilities under GFA but the backstop is the only one that's workable so far.
As for trusting the DUP on this, I wouldn't trust those bastards to tell me what time it is. Same with Sinn Fein in case you think I prefer one lot of bastards over the other.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 15:32

Northern Ireland, Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, parts of the Gulf, what do they all have in common?
The significant hand of the UK, principally Westminster meddling.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 17/12/2018 15:49

Laura Kuenssberg
‏*@bbclaurak*
May confirms meaningful vote will be week of 14th Jan

ElenadeClermont · 17/12/2018 15:59

Technically the 20th is in the week of the 14th, so she is running down the clock. How dare she play chicken with our lives?!

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/12/2018 15:59

Using NI as a leveraging chip in the negotiation is what poses the risk to the GFA, especially if the solution is unsustainable. The UK should have declined to engage on that basis right from the start.

Listen very carefully:
This is all the fault of people who voted to leave. This is the decision they made. NI is collateral damage in a disastrous decision. It is not the job of the EU to solve a problem Britain created for itself. It is the job of the EU to look after their own citizens and their own interests. It is their job to try and protect a peace treaty that affects their citizens and the territory that is (now) on their border and for which they have been guarantors.

If Britain had gone for soft brexit - SM + CU - none of this would have happened. It was Britain's choice (not UK - NI voted to remain) to brexit. It is Britain's choice to pursue a hard brexit. It is therefore Britain's choice to jeopardise our union.

The EU has no responsibility to protect our union for us. They do have a responsibility to protect their own union - and their single market.

Everything that is happening is the fault of Britain's govt and the people who voted to leave. The EU does not have to sort that. It is not them being difficult. It is not them threatening the GFA.

howabout · 17/12/2018 16:08

I can see you are convinced you know better than David Trimble icant so I'll leave you to it. Hmm

DGRossetti · 17/12/2018 16:09

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/17/galileo_scisys/

theregister.co.uk
Brexit-dodging SCISYS Brits find Galileo joy in Dublin
17 Dec 2018 at 13:49
2-3 minutes
UK space specialist's holding company ups sticks for €11.2m

Chippenham-based space systems specialist SCISYS has announced that it will trouser €11.2m as part of a contract to keep the Galileo project running.

The award, with Thales Alenia Space France, is for the continuation and enhancement of four Galileo Ground Mission Segments (GMS). The GMS comprises control centres and a network of transmitting and receiving stations, as well as telemetry and control for the satellite constellation.

As it stands, the UK is due to exit the European Union next March, meaning that British companies can no longer bid on lucrative contacts for EU-funded projects like Galileo. While there has been much hand-wringing by politicos, the message from academics and industry alike has been stark – if Blighty isn't in the club, it can't eat from the club's trough.

While some companies, such as Airbus, are able to shift operations to EU centres, others aren't as lucky.

SCISYS has opted to move its parent company to Dublin, something it said "has proved decisive in securing this contract". The 650-head company has offices in the UK and Germany and, presumably, its name on a plaque stuck to a door somewhere in Dublin.

The contract will run from now until June 2020 and is to be undertaken by the company's German employees. It is aimed at improving security and resilience in the next phase of the Galileo programme. SCISYS will also take over a component of the Mission Key Management Facility.

SCISYS CEO Klaus Heidrich said of the deal: "This contract underpins our continued position of strength in the European space sector and satellite-navigation programmes in particular."

So long as your holding company is Irish. ®

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 16:23

Unsurprisingly, there are voices other than Lord Trimble saying something different.

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